Ultimate Power: Just How Much Power Can Be Squeezed Out Of A Road Car Engine?
02-02-2003, 08:30 PM
#4
Registered User
Actually, I was kind of disappointed by this article. The author clearly didn't do much research. First of all, engines are already at 120 hp/liter and peaking beyond 8000 rpm. While one might point out that the F20C in the S2000 is a unique example, the same architecture is being used in the soon to be ubiquitous K-series engine (110 hp/liter in the RSX-R). And with simple bolt on modifications _that_ engine is already exceeding 130-135+ hp/liter using completely stock internals, pump gas (91 octane) and OEM cams.
The K20 and F20 (probably the K20 first) will quite soon reach 150 hp/liter on pump gasoline at a peak power rpm of less than 9000 rpm with aftermarket development. While this does not qualify as a production engine, such efforts usually do a good job of forecasting the future capabilities of production engines. Honda could easily reach those hp levels, but to do so with reliability, durability and emissions takes a lot more work. The only question I have is will Honda deem it necessary to reach for such specific outputs outside of very small volume niche applications? I guess we'll find out in another 5-6 years when the next gen Honda I4 engine is ready. Either way, to reach such levels will not require much outside of small evolutionary improvements in ring design, valvetrain, engine control systems and emissions control devices. After all, production based 4cyl 2.0 liters were exceeding 300 crank hp 10 years ago and nearly at that level today (BTCC) despite rather restrictive regulations (more restrictive than what we have on our production F20Cs in many cases). With the advent of infinitely variable valve timing (and especially camless engines), you could see peak output improve by 10+ hp/liter (no idea what the limit might be) with substantial low and mid range power gains.
The biggest limitation in production car power production is, IMO, fuels. Current gasolines are not really getting any better. 200 hp/liter with forced induction is pushing it on 91 octane, although I'm sure there will be incremental improvements there as well, although the best way to improve upon that will be higher rpms as well. If we had 93-94 octane consistently, we could obtain another 5-10 hp/liter normally aspirated, and probably even more with FI.
UL
The K20 and F20 (probably the K20 first) will quite soon reach 150 hp/liter on pump gasoline at a peak power rpm of less than 9000 rpm with aftermarket development. While this does not qualify as a production engine, such efforts usually do a good job of forecasting the future capabilities of production engines. Honda could easily reach those hp levels, but to do so with reliability, durability and emissions takes a lot more work. The only question I have is will Honda deem it necessary to reach for such specific outputs outside of very small volume niche applications? I guess we'll find out in another 5-6 years when the next gen Honda I4 engine is ready. Either way, to reach such levels will not require much outside of small evolutionary improvements in ring design, valvetrain, engine control systems and emissions control devices. After all, production based 4cyl 2.0 liters were exceeding 300 crank hp 10 years ago and nearly at that level today (BTCC) despite rather restrictive regulations (more restrictive than what we have on our production F20Cs in many cases). With the advent of infinitely variable valve timing (and especially camless engines), you could see peak output improve by 10+ hp/liter (no idea what the limit might be) with substantial low and mid range power gains.
The biggest limitation in production car power production is, IMO, fuels. Current gasolines are not really getting any better. 200 hp/liter with forced induction is pushing it on 91 octane, although I'm sure there will be incremental improvements there as well, although the best way to improve upon that will be higher rpms as well. If we had 93-94 octane consistently, we could obtain another 5-10 hp/liter normally aspirated, and probably even more with FI.
UL
02-03-2003, 08:14 AM
#7
Registered User
Well, the F20C certainly has the capability to exceed the K20 in peak output. The key is the ECU and availability of parts which is already much better for the K20. It will never match the low end torque though thanks to i-VTEC.
Oh, one other mistake in that article. They talk about F1 turbo engines as being exemplary of the highest specific output on an engine (700-800 hp/liter). This completely ignores the 7000+ hp from 8.2 liters for NHRA Top Fuel engines (800+ hp/liter). Hell, even in import drag racing, a relatively young sport, engines are already exceeding the 400 hp/liter mark using production based engines.
UL
Oh, one other mistake in that article. They talk about F1 turbo engines as being exemplary of the highest specific output on an engine (700-800 hp/liter). This completely ignores the 7000+ hp from 8.2 liters for NHRA Top Fuel engines (800+ hp/liter). Hell, even in import drag racing, a relatively young sport, engines are already exceeding the 400 hp/liter mark using production based engines.
UL
Trending Topics
02-04-2003, 06:39 AM
#8
UL, you know too much! 
02-04-2003, 01:10 PM
#10
But that 1500bhp motor wasn't driven at that high of power, I don't think. I thought they said that was the peak output on a dyno, but they never ran the engine like that in a race. It's like Ferrari or Williams or BMW saying "we ran our engine at 21 000 rpm in our shop" and claiming that they now have the fastest revving engine in racing (actual highest number is now 19 500 rpm, I think). It's one thing to dyno that high, it's another thing to run a race at that high of a tuning level.
Still, you are right on one thing - that's a very high specific output and probably still higher (in race tune) than some of the NHRA top fuel cars.
Still, you are right on one thing - that's a very high specific output and probably still higher (in race tune) than some of the NHRA top fuel cars.