LFA- who cares @ $375k...
IS-F- Still not better than the M3
BRZ/FRS- Ok def a gr8 car! just underpowered.

 

Those penniless college kids/Wally World workers must be doing well because their car is worth more than the two cars in your sig combined.

 

IS-F - The only thing they build that cones close. Big engine + small chassis = Detroit formula. Never been a fan.

LF-A - At $375K irrelevant when an F458 costs less and Godzilla can outperform it.

FR-S/BRZ - Great for penniless college kids and people that work at Wally World. What have you got for adults?
[/quote]

I didn't know you set a price boundary on your comment. Perhaps you should state that up front, or else just admit you forgot that they made some cars that enthusiasts might enjoy that are made by Toyota...

 

IS-F - The only thing they build that cones close. Big engine + small chassis = Detroit formula. Never been a fan.

LF-A - At $375K irrelevant when an F458 costs less and Godzilla can outperform it.

FR-S/BRZ - Great for penniless college kids and people that work at Wally World. What have you got for adults?
[/quote]

Well damn... what's your opinion of the Honda S2000 and Chrysler Crossfire then? Chariots of God?

All I see here is a bunch of dogmatic bashing of Toyota.

 

Not chariots of the Gods. Just much more targeted cars. Cars with a personality and no apologies. They aren't trying to be the car that 73.47% of the people in the 24-47 age demographic will not find objectionable unlike every Toyota product. And Honda's these days as well.

My opinion of the S2000 is that it was Honda's high note. Better than the NSX in the real world. A purpose built roadster with a near perfect chassis and a perfect power train for what Honda was shooting for. And near bulletproof reliability. C'mon, has there been any Toyota produced since the turn of the century other than the ridiculously irrelevant LFA that would put as big a smile on your face. If you had to choose between a roadster with 240 HP @ $34K and a small coupe with 200 HP @ $27K, which one would you choose? The fact that a Toyota closed chassis designed 10 years after a Honda open chassis is "almost competitive" is nothing to brag about even if it is cheaper.

As for the Crossfire, people react to the looks. It's an acquired taste. Have you ever driven an SRT6? Doubtful, only 2,016 were made in a single year of production. It's the Mercedes SLK32 AMG with the folding hard top removed. 200 lbs lighter. Stiffer chassis. Improved engine cooling (important with the supercharger). Improved suspension. More tire. And a more useful rear hatch area. And that's just from the factory. It's easily modded. With a S/C pulley, tune, and intake work, (about $2K in total) mine is currently @ 410 HP and 390 lb/ft. in a car that weighs 3,200 lbs. That's no problem for the AMG 5 speed automatic as it was pulled from the AMG parts bin where it also serves with much more powerful engines. After more than a year with it, I find it almost as much fun as a manual and much faster in some situations. It's also incredibly well mated to the supercharged engine. AMG are not idiots. It's a sub-4.5 second car 0-60 and very controllable. I certainly wouldn't trade it for anything in the Toyota lineup. And yeah, I like the unique looks.

 

Not to me. $27K for a slow cheaply built platform isn't a bargain. It's what they can afford. And that's fine.

The SRT6 was a $50K car when new. Hand built AMG engine and transmission. Supercharger, intercooler, manually shifted automatic. People walked away from it primarily because of the Chrysler badge and secondarily because it was only offered with the AMG automatic. 99% of people who passed on the car did so without ever driving one. Good for people like me who looked beyond the Chrysler badge and understood what the car really is.

As for the S2000, if an FRS/BRZ is worth more to you than an AP2 V3 S2000 then you probably are the target market for the Toyobaru product and not the target market for S2KI. Which is fine. Embrace the bland if that's what you can afford and you are happy with that level of performance.

 

Not to me. $27K for a slow cheaply built platform isn't a bargain. It's what they can afford. And that's fine.

The SRT6 was a $50K car when new. Hand built AMG engine and transmission. Supercharger, intercooler, manually shifted automatic. People walked away from it primarily because of the Chrysler badge and secondarily because it was only offered with the AMG automatic. 99% of people who passed on the car did so without ever driving one. Good for people like me who looked beyond the Chrysler badge and understood what the car really is.

As for the S2000, if an FRS/BRZ is worth more to you than an AP2 V3 S2000 then you probably are the target market for the Toyobaru product and not the target market for S2KI. Which is fine. Embrace the bland if that's what you can afford and you are happy with that level of performance.
[/quote]

99% of the people passed on it from looks alone.

You obviously don't understand my point. Any buyer of the FRS/BRZ today can go out and buy 2 S2000s or 2+ Crossfires with the money they spent which is why I don't understand your high and mighty stance.

Although I don't own an FRS/BRZ, I can appreciate the car for the qualities it brings, regardless of price tag. It's been a while since I've driven an S2K but IIRC the BRZ I drove was about as fun to drive as my S2K was.

 

The cross fire is hideous. I always see it from a distance and am like. Oh! Is that something cool?... Nope, with an old woman driving it. It's not unique looking its pretty bland. Did they forget to shape the back of the car? And the front looks like the SLK and Chrysler 300 had a baby. Plus an auto? I refuse to believe they made this supercharged amg threw it in a chrysler auto because they were trying to make a drivers car. The brz/frs has a gearbox close to as good as the s2000. It's lightweight rwd and super cheap. Cheap enough that you could buy the vortech sc have about 300 hp and still it would all cost less than the crossfire. Also talking about "what people can afford" when discussing cars kinda seems a little douchey to me?

 

Ahem, still looking for a pulse.

IS-F - The only thing they build that comes close. Big engine + small chassis = Detroit formula. Never been a fan.
[/quote]


So your definition of a pulse:
#1 Expensive, inaccessible to middle, lower-middle class
#2 Small, high-output engine in small chassis (I guess turbo only?)
#3 Big, high-output engine in big chassis
That's a pretty stringent criteria

What does Mazda make that fits this criteria? It focuses on affordable, lightweight, driver's cars (miata, rx-8) just like Toyota is doing with the FRS...

I also don't understand how you knock the IS-F when it uses the same formula as the almighty M3, the car that made BMW the "Ultimate Driving Machine". Albeit, it may not be quite as good as an M3 yet, but Lexus fighting for the top spot shows life... which couldn't occur without a pulse... at least in my mind.

But back to the topic on hand... I see BMW gaining from this collaboration as they try to move more down market, rebadging MINI platforms and using FWD in their hybrid platforms for the first time.

 

Ahem, still looking for a pulse.

IS-F - The only thing they build that comes close. Big engine + small chassis = Detroit formula. Never been a fan.
[/quote]


So your definition of a pulse:
#1 Expensive, inaccessible to middle, lower-middle class
#2 Small, high-output engine in small chassis (I guess turbo only?)
#3 Big, high-output engine in big chassis
That's a pretty stringent criteria

What does Mazda make that fits this criteria? It focuses on affordable, lightweight, driver's cars (miata, rx-8) just like Toyota is doing with the FRS...

I also don't understand how you knock the IS-F when it uses the same formula as the almighty M3, the car that made BMW the "Ultimate Driving Machine". Albeit, it may not be quite as good as an M3 yet, but Lexus fighting for the top spot shows life... which couldn't occur without a pulse... at least in my mind.

But back to the topic on hand... I see BMW gaining from this collaboration as they try to move more down market, rebadging MINI platforms and using FWD in their hybrid platforms for the first time.
[/quote]

I suppose I'm just biased against the IS platform. I see it as what it started out as. A small entry level luxury car that gets low end buyers into the Lexus brand. Cushy and cramped with styling intended to not offend rather than excite anyone. And then they stuffed a big engine in.

BMW on the other hand has been designing the 3 series chassis as a driver's car for a loooong time. It's their bread and butter product. The basic goodness is designed in at a fundamental level, not tacked on as an afterthought. With any engine and at any trim level you get a driver's car.

The S2000 wasn't inaccessible to the middle class. Neither are/were the Z car, Infiniti Coupe, Mustang, Camaro, 3 series, RX8, GTO, Miata, SRT6, Audi TT, STi, Evo, base Corvette, or the ill fated Solstice/Sky. I'm sorry, other than a cost no object super car which definitely is inaccessible to the middle class, Toyota hasn't made much interesting in a long time. And really, how hard is it for any major manufacturer to make an LFA equivalent with a $375K target price? It doesn't impress me that much.