Toyota is back? FT-86 Concept
10-12-2009, 07:17 AM
#161
I am too ignorant on the subject to argue from a "the market needs x" point of view, but I agree with ZDan's other comments.
Also, Chris I can appreciate what you are saying, that type of car just doesn't make sense to me. I see it as a big car that happens to be sporty and I just have trouble wrapping my mind around that. If you are going to make something that is big, heavy, underpowered, etc. then why even bother trying to make a sports car out of it?
Also, Chris I can appreciate what you are saying, that type of car just doesn't make sense to me. I see it as a big car that happens to be sporty and I just have trouble wrapping my mind around that. If you are going to make something that is big, heavy, underpowered, etc. then why even bother trying to make a sports car out of it?
10-12-2009, 07:34 AM
#162
^^^ Note that I don't own a G35C, or a Genesis Coupe. Given all the G35C's I see all over the place, they obviously fill a need in th marketplace.
Anything I'd consider in this space would have to improve upon my NC for track duty, which would be a tall order. You have to remember that as a group, we're a bit more hardcore than the average consumer who wants a plush interior, sound deadening, and a decent size trunk for their $30K+ investment.
I suspect the reason we don't see more small, lw coupes is partially based on prior sales performance.
Anything I'd consider in this space would have to improve upon my NC for track duty, which would be a tall order. You have to remember that as a group, we're a bit more hardcore than the average consumer who wants a plush interior, sound deadening, and a decent size trunk for their $30K+ investment.
I suspect the reason we don't see more small, lw coupes is partially based on prior sales performance.
10-12-2009, 08:08 AM
#163
[QUOTE=Chris S,Oct 12 2009, 07:34 AM]^^^
10-12-2009, 08:10 AM
#164
Registered User
Originally Posted by Sweeper,Oct 12 2009, 06:41 AM
10-12-2009, 08:43 AM
#165
Originally Posted by Chris S,Oct 12 2009, 06:46 AM
I really do appreciate smaller cars, and would buy that Toyota over the Genesis coupe anyday (notice I've raved about the sedan, but never said much about the coupe). But that Toyota is going to have a useless seat, limiting its appeal on the broader market. Why don't I see more bitching about the G35's size? Sporty and sports car are two different things, and there's room for both in the marketplace. Heck, my E90 M3 is even heavier, and I never bitch about the weight behind the wheel - it just feels right and does everything I ask of it.
I have a finance background, and have been in product development, so I'm looking at things from Hyundai's perspective. They're not a niche manufacturer, but I give them credit for progressing their product line/quality in the right direction.
I have a finance background, and have been in product development, so I'm looking at things from Hyundai's perspective. They're not a niche manufacturer, but I give them credit for progressing their product line/quality in the right direction.
For example, my miata has a much smaller performance envelope than a Corvette, for example, in factory trim. However, my Miata's handicaps are fixable. In the most simplistic form possible I look at cars by three criteria: The ability to make usable power, the ability to make a considerable amount of mechanical grip, and weight. (certainly there are more things to consider. This is just the high level approach). Please note that I used the term "ability".
The Corvette has all of the goods to go, all of the goods to stick, and the only real disadvantage is its weight, which is really quite acceptable given the balance of the other two in proportion to the weight.
Using my Miata as an example, it has the ability to make a decent amount of reliable power, it has the goods to make grip (in spite of the fact that some of it's dimensions are less than favorable to this end), and it has such a low curb weight that any shortcomings it has in either other department are easier to overcome.
This Hyundai Genesis Coupe, however, does not get the same rosy prognosis. While the engine in the Genesis Coupe is certainly better than the POS 1.6 in my Miata (I really think these engines suck. Without boost there is little hope.) it is still a far cry from the engine in the Z06. That wouldn't be a problem if Hyundai wasn't such a porker. When you consider that it weighs more than the C6, has a lesser ability to make power, and has a suspension setup that is less sophisticated, it really becomes hard to justify buying one by the terms I evaluate performance cars... granted my terms may be complete nonsense to other people.
10-12-2009, 08:51 AM
#166
To add to that...
Chris, your M3 is a pretty heavy car. However, its weight seems entirely justifiable to me. It is marketing to people of discriminating taste who expect a considerable amount of comfort with their sportiness. The M3 manages to be a great performer in spite of this. However, I do not feel that it has any business racing Corvettes as it has several disadvantages keeping it from performing on that level. I only mention that because I want to bitch slap the ALMS people for letting that M3GTR abomination into the GT2 class. Sorry for the tangent.
Anyhow, I think the problem with the way you are rationalizing the Genesis Coupe is that you are more or less saying, "It's a big comfy GT car, it's going to be heavy or big etc." The problem with that is that it is not comfortable or luxurious enough to justify the weight. If it had all of the doodads and whatsits of the M3 I would think it would be more justifiable. Unless I am overlooking something, it seems to me that they tried to make a compact sporty car out of a big ass car and ended up with a car that weighed more than it should.
Am I wrong?
Chris, your M3 is a pretty heavy car. However, its weight seems entirely justifiable to me. It is marketing to people of discriminating taste who expect a considerable amount of comfort with their sportiness. The M3 manages to be a great performer in spite of this. However, I do not feel that it has any business racing Corvettes as it has several disadvantages keeping it from performing on that level. I only mention that because I want to bitch slap the ALMS people for letting that M3GTR abomination into the GT2 class. Sorry for the tangent.
Anyhow, I think the problem with the way you are rationalizing the Genesis Coupe is that you are more or less saying, "It's a big comfy GT car, it's going to be heavy or big etc." The problem with that is that it is not comfortable or luxurious enough to justify the weight. If it had all of the doodads and whatsits of the M3 I would think it would be more justifiable. Unless I am overlooking something, it seems to me that they tried to make a compact sporty car out of a big ass car and ended up with a car that weighed more than it should.
Am I wrong?
10-12-2009, 09:31 AM
#167
Registered User
Here's another tidbit to throw into the mix - the RX-8, with seating for four (although I've never been in the back so I don't know how practical that seating is) is overall 12.9 inches longer than an S2000. The wheelbase is 11.9 incheas longer. Nobody's ever accused the RX-8, as far as I know, of being huge or a monster. And the HGC is only 6.7 inches longer than the RX-8, with a 4.6 inches longer wheelbase.
Sure, "two feet longer than an S2000" sounds huge, but in real life, it's really not. Less than 10%.
(And everybody's favorite small car, the Miata, is only currently 5.4 inches shorter than an S2000.
)
Sure, "two feet longer than an S2000" sounds huge, but in real life, it's really not. Less than 10%.
(And everybody's favorite small car, the Miata, is only currently 5.4 inches shorter than an S2000.
)
10-12-2009, 10:05 AM
#168
Originally Posted by Elistan,Oct 12 2009, 09:31 AM
Here's another tidbit to throw into the mix - the RX-8, with seating for four (although I've never been in the back so I don't know how practical that seating is) is overall 12.9 inches longer than an S2000. The wheelbase is 11.9 incheas longer. Nobody's ever accused the RX-8, as far as I know, of being huge or a monster. And the HGC is only 6.7 inches longer than the RX-8, with a 4.6 inches longer wheelbase.
Sure, "two feet longer than an S2000" sounds huge, but in real life, it's really not. Less than 10%.
(And everybody's favorite small car, the Miata, is only currently 5.4 inches shorter than an S2000. )
Sure, "two feet longer than an S2000" sounds huge, but in real life, it's really not. Less than 10%.
(And everybody's favorite small car, the Miata, is only currently 5.4 inches shorter than an S2000.
)However, I think that the RX-8 only illustrates that the Genesis is overweight.
Also, using your rationale, the s2000 is only slightly shorter than the rx-8, which is only slightly shorter than the Genesis, which is only slightly shorter than the Viper, which is only slightly shorter than the whatever, which is only slightly shorter than the whatever, all the way up until we are talking semi trucks and aircraft carriers. Everything is going to be incrementally bigger than something and eventually you have to remove some of the in-between cars and compare car b to car j.
10-12-2009, 10:28 AM
#169
[QUOTE=Elistan,Oct 12 2009, 09:31 AM]Here's another tidbit to throw into the mix - the RX-8, with seating for four (although I've never been in the back so I don't know how practical that seating is) is overall 12.9 inches longer than an S2000.
10-12-2009, 10:34 AM
#170
Originally Posted by Mr.E.G.,Oct 12 2009, 10:43 AM
I am sure that you are right. I just look at buying a sports car from the perspective of competing at a high level (or at least building a car capable of such even if my driving skills aren't up to the task).
For example, my miata has a much smaller performance envelope than a Corvette, for example, in factory trim. However, my Miata's handicaps are fixable. In the most simplistic form possible I look at cars by three criteria: The ability to make usable power, the ability to make a considerable amount of mechanical grip, and weight. (certainly there are more things to consider. This is just the high level approach). Please note that I used the term "ability".
The Corvette has all of the goods to go, all of the goods to stick, and the only real disadvantage is its weight, which is really quite acceptable given the balance of the other two in proportion to the weight.
Using my Miata as an example, it has the ability to make a decent amount of reliable power, it has the goods to make grip (in spite of the fact that some of it's dimensions are less than favorable to this end), and it has such a low curb weight that any shortcomings it has in either other department are easier to overcome.
This Hyundai Genesis Coupe, however, does not get the same rosy prognosis. While the engine in the Genesis Coupe is certainly better than the POS 1.6 in my Miata (I really think these engines suck. Without boost there is little hope.) it is still a far cry from the engine in the Z06. That wouldn't be a problem if Hyundai wasn't such a porker. When you consider that it weighs more than the C6, has a lesser ability to make power, and has a suspension setup that is less sophisticated, it really becomes hard to justify buying one by the terms I evaluate performance cars... granted my terms may be complete nonsense to other people.
For example, my miata has a much smaller performance envelope than a Corvette, for example, in factory trim. However, my Miata's handicaps are fixable. In the most simplistic form possible I look at cars by three criteria: The ability to make usable power, the ability to make a considerable amount of mechanical grip, and weight. (certainly there are more things to consider. This is just the high level approach). Please note that I used the term "ability".
The Corvette has all of the goods to go, all of the goods to stick, and the only real disadvantage is its weight, which is really quite acceptable given the balance of the other two in proportion to the weight.
Using my Miata as an example, it has the ability to make a decent amount of reliable power, it has the goods to make grip (in spite of the fact that some of it's dimensions are less than favorable to this end), and it has such a low curb weight that any shortcomings it has in either other department are easier to overcome.
This Hyundai Genesis Coupe, however, does not get the same rosy prognosis. While the engine in the Genesis Coupe is certainly better than the POS 1.6 in my Miata (I really think these engines suck. Without boost there is little hope.) it is still a far cry from the engine in the Z06. That wouldn't be a problem if Hyundai wasn't such a porker. When you consider that it weighs more than the C6, has a lesser ability to make power, and has a suspension setup that is less sophisticated, it really becomes hard to justify buying one by the terms I evaluate performance cars... granted my terms may be complete nonsense to other people.