curiouz_G

Like everyone else who has experience in both cars, the MS3 > SI, not only in the speed department, but also the handling (arguable) and mod ability. The only place you could argue is the gearbox and MAYBE the interior/exterior.

tarheel91

No, horsepower does not directly influence torque steer. You are correct. However, horsepower shows the potential for acceleration through both torque and gearing. That's because it multiplies torque times rpm (/5252 but that's irrelevant). If you can achieve the same torque curve, but lengthened out over 8000 rpms vs. 4000 rpms, you'll have twice the peak horsepower. You can also use a gear ratio that's twice as large. That's no coincidence. While horsepower doesn't tell you about the gearing in a car, it shows the potential for gearing. Combine this with the fact that it incorporates torque as well, and it's easy to see why torque steer is better indicated by horsepower than torque.

rich337

as much as i love hondas, i couldnt possibly see myself buying an Si over an MS3. especially the second gen MS3. i drove a first gen model, and the mazda's fun factor was ridiculous for a "cheap" car. the interior was better than expected too. it didn't have the polished feel of the Si, but it was perfect for its target audience.

thebig33tuna

uh. as much as the ms3 is better on paper and probably a lot of what you guys are saying is true in that regard...

i can't stand the looks of the speed3. i'd take an SI on that factor alone.

JonBoy

It's called "torque steer" for a reason, namely, because it is caused by TORQUE, not by horsepower. Horsepower is derived from torque.

The reason you think you're right is because "high horsepower" cars tend to have torque steer. However, if you've ever tried a diesel car, they also often have torque steer if they are FWD....and yet they make very little horsepower (but massive torque). The Civic Si only has 200 hp and yet it has torque steer.

Torque steer has nothing to do with horsepower. Period. It is a condition caused purely by torque and geometry and is present in vehicles with relatively little horsepower but a lot of torque. There is only one common denominator in torque steer and it is torque.

All you gave me was a brief synopsis of adapting engine output to gearing to produce optimal performance. It has nothing to do with torque steer. Torque steer is a function of drivetrain geometry and torque at the wheels. Horsepower is irrelevant.

zachismisitok

I think im gonna have to go with the soon to be PE(jon) in that argument

good luck tar

tarheel91

Torque at the wheels is determined by effective torque, yes? That is determined by torque and gearing, yes? That means it's better indicated by horsepower. How is that so hard to understand? You said yourself every FWD car with decent gearing should have some torque steer in first gear. Having driven a couple diesels (the most recent a Jetta TDI with 140hp/240 torque), I can tell you torque steer is only an issue in first gear below 3000 rpm for those cars.

thebig33tuna

take your torquesteer argument somewhere else

JonBoy

What matters is the torque at the wheels, since that is the contact patch and where the motor torque is applied in a way that moves the car. Horsepower at the wheels means nothing to me in terms of determining the load on the tires and axles. It's all about torque. If you ask me if a car will spin its tires or break its axles, I'm going to ask about the torque output, not the horsepower.

Torque x gear ratio = net torque at wheels = reason for torque steer

You say torque and gearing determine "effective torque", then somehow say that horsepower is a better indicator when everything you've talked about only involves torque. When did torque jump off the ship and get replaced by horsepower?

I challenge you to read up on torque steer and see if they mention torque or horsepower as the driving cause of torque steer. I'll give you a hint - it's torque.

Look at the reasons for torque steer.

1. Unequal length half shafts - one shaft flexes more than the other. This flex is caused by TORQUE.

2. Poor suspension geometry.

3. Combination of the above.

Horsepower is irrelevant. Horsepower doesn't flex the shafts - torque does.

tarheel91

I'll PM you instead of hijacking the thread any further.