PLYRS 3

i agree.

ray charles is kinda out to lunch on this one...

nonetheless, i priced out both a 530 and 545 (up to similar equipment levels as the RL) and got:

530 = 54,945K
545 = 61,440K

not insignificant price deltas. the BMW will probably have better quality materials (leather/wood).

are the 2 cars different? not having driven the new RL (but based on typical/historical japanese traits/values), of course. even an MB benz doesn't drive like a BMW....most would agree, BMW's are the best "driving" cars in the world.

not sure how it is in the states, but someone in CAN that is in the $50K snack-bracket, is not easily swayed (or able) to cough up an additional $10K.

10K @ the, say, 100K prince point is irrelevant....however, 10K @ the 50K price point is ABSOLUTELY relevant.

ray, "snap out of it"!!

(cher slaps him in the face)

steve c

Believe it or not, many of us who actually know how to drive manage quite well with the proper tires and RWD in the snow. I am unwilling to make the sacrifice of driving a FWD car 99 percent of the year just so I can get up a hill easier 1 percent of the time.

How is this relevant?

No, you can google it yourself.

You have that backwards. The Accord has a cheaper base price than the Camry.

An open rear end and ASC made those cars worthless in the snow. You were better off with ASC turned off. DSC improved things a bit.

A couple of things there, if 10k at 100 is relevant, then 5k at 50 would be? Which is oddly about what the spread is if you don't need all the options on the BMW.

Why is the S4 not in the class? Rear seat size?

PLYRS 3

agreed, but it would mean 2 things:

either the RL will have "forced" options, or if those items are not required in the first place, the price of the BMW's could be reduced (not by much however).

S4 isn't in the same class - it's a 3-series/C-class competitor, not 5-series/E-class competitor.

good discussion.

VTEC Racer

OMG Really? I didn't know that.

PLEASE! When I say Acura, it obviously means Honda too. I don't wan't to have to say Honda/Acura everytime I just want to say Acura. It would be like me saying Ford along with the ten million other car companies it owns.

dbjb

I think VTEC Racer was implying that Honda Motor is still an independent company unlike Nissan/Infinity which is 42% Renault.

MaxGeek

I think 10k at 50k price range is a lot of money, that or people don't like V8's because the 545i only made up ~1/5 of all 5 series sales so far. I think they will sale even less V8's once BMW puts out their new line of I6's that will have a much needed increase in hp. (~260hp)

VTEC Racer

Believe it or not, but you must be living in some performance driving orientated town if most of the people are driving RWD cars. And since when was winter only around for 1% of the year? Try 25% of the year. For people who live in the High Sierras or the Rockies, RWD will not cut it. During the winter months it snows atleast once a week there. Not to mention the heavy dusting that are received during fall and spring. The Colorado high country just got 1-2 feet of snow on the first day of fall! You think the snow plows would be able to clear the roads fast enough in most parts in order to make driving in RWD easy? And that would be assuming there is no ice on the ground and the plow is really really good and leaves almost no trace of snow. I doubt it. You won't be able to do much without FWD or AWD. What about the people in Canada? It's always snowing up in some parts, people wouldn't be able to drive around with RWD. Whistler, Canada for example. A fairly populated world-class ski resort town. During winter, it constantly gets snowed on there. Vancouver is right below it so the storms just go down there and Vancouver is heavily populated. The majority of the cars are NOT RWD. As you can see, 1% is a whole lot more than you think it is. And wow I almost forgot about ME! I've mentioned that I'm looking for a new car that is capable in the snow. Did I also forget to mention that the car I am looking at is NOT RWD for the specific reason because I know I'm going to be driving in the snow? On top of that, I live by the beach and will only be driving in the snow when I go on snowboarding trips. So look at me, I'm buying a car that I will be driving 90% of the time by the beach and only 10% of the time in snow, yet my main deciding factor of which car to get depends mostly on that 10%. Obviously, I am not the only type of person that thinks this way. There are many people who only drive in the snow during winter vacations, yet they get a car that they know will be capable still in the snow. I have two friends who are perfect examples of this too. Now wouldnt you say that people who LIVE up in the mountains would obvioulsy contemplate the same thing?


It's relevant because you said that the MDX isn't a real SUV. I'm telling you that real SUV or not, it's the best-selling SUV in it's class. So apparently all the thousands of people who have purchased and waited on a waiting list to purchase an MDX think it's good enough of an SUV to meet there needs. But were you not the one that said the best-selling car is the BEST CAR? So your telling me that the MDX is the best car in it's class? The TL is the best car in it's class? The Pilot is the best car in it's class? The Odyssey is the best car in it's class? The Honda Civic is the best car in it's class? What else is there... What exactly is Mercedes-Benz or BMW best-selling at? I know it's not the 7 series. Heavily discounted and in the service department more than a car should be. Not the C-class because that thing has more quality and reliability issues than a Pinto.

Sorry, did a search on Goggle and couldn't find any reliability problems with the Preludes ATTS. Back your statements up, I back mine up when needed.

The S4 is not in the class of the RL simply because it's not. The Audi that IS in the class of the RL is the A6. The Acura TL is the closest thing from Acura to be in the S4's class. But then again the TL isn't even designed or capable of competing with the S4. The TL is meant to compete with the A4's. Come to think of it, there really are no cars in the same class as the S4. It's in a class of it's own. What other similarly sized, 300+ HP AWD sedans are on the road with a price of around $50k? Everything aside, the closest competitor that I can think of to the S4 is the Subaru Sti or Mitsubishi Evolution 8.

MaxGeek

Preludes ATTS system would over heat after autocrossing. I think a few people on this forum have talked about it.

S4 is definately not in the same class as the RL because of the size difference. The only car I can see in the S4's class is the MB C55 AMG and maybe the M3 if you look pass the 2 doors.

rai

You will find some people who don't mind driving a RWD in the snow, but (I think) more people buy BMW for example because of it's status "I got a Bimmer" they couldn't give a hoot if it's RWD, FWD, or AWD. I'm not saying real car guys, but the average doctor or doctors wife (etc..) will say "Johnson has a MB or BMW" and by reflex they'll get one.

A lot of people think AWD/FWD is better in the rain/snow. A lot of people have grown up on FWD and don't know about new snow tire compounds and stablity control that can tame RWD's oversteer tendancy.

My first car was a 1979 Nova. That car scared the bejesus out of me in the snow. My next car all I wanted was a FWD.

You'll see almost ALL luxury manufacturers soon offer AWD. Infiniti, Lexus, MB, BMW (not so much), Cadillac, Audi, Jaguar, Volvo, Bentley, Acura, Chrysler, etc.. they wouldn't offer it if it wasn't in demand.

That's not to say RWD with AWD (option) might be a better way to go. But when you are a FWD manufacturer like Audi, Volvo, and Acura etc..then AWD is better than only FWD.

steve c

No, we generally know how to drive in the snow, regardless of which end is being driven -- and we are smart enough to use the proper rubber. It's the out of town prats that make it look like AWD is a neccessity because they have no experience in the stuff.

I honestly did not read the rest of your post (paragraphs are your friend by the way, not your enemy) but did gloss over the bit about us getting 1-2 feet of snow. We didn't. It would be great if we had. A-Basin and Breck are blowing already though.

Again I'm not sure how the MDX plays into this. It is a nice minivan with AWD, and a good looking one at that, but an SUV it is not. It can't tow much of anything and can't go off-road. In my view those are two requirements for a real SUV. Maybe BMW nailed the definition when they called their X5 an SAV.

Likewise I don't follow your listing of cars after that point; I doubt Honda is the sales leader in all of those categories, but honestly I am just too ing lazy to go off and look.