Possible Revamped CR-Z
09-18-2013, 05:49 AM
#41
Moderator
There was no good volume for the last 5 years of the S2000 during the peak of the US economy. There is no demand now. That's the point.
09-18-2013, 06:43 AM
#43
Administrator
Originally Posted by TommyDeVito' timestamp='1379451472' post='22783406
Thanks. It saved me from typing a response to the Honda nerd.
You were point blank asked to back up your statement and you couldn't. Enough said.
09-18-2013, 08:24 AM
#44
Originally Posted by Saki GT' timestamp='1379430058' post='22782693
[quote name='rob-2' timestamp='1379429428' post='22782675']The CR-Z will never fill the roll of an S2000 or BRZ. It's foolish to discuss it like it will. Completely different segment and buyer.
Originally Posted by TheDonEffect' timestamp='1379365964' post='22781306
Again, I'm fully aware that Honda is doing just fine, and sales are just fine, and theyre making lots of money, and yadda yadda. I'm just point out the simple fact that Honda is seemingly incapable of making a competitive sporty vehicle in this arms race era. And that's fine, unlike a lot of honda fanbois, I have no real brand allegiance, my only allegiance is to great cars that speak to me.
So in the end, there is core group of loyal enthusiasts that Honda is neglecting in the pursuit of being conservative and making profit. Nothing wrong with that per se, but that's jsut an excuse for this primary point: Honda forgot about their enthusiasts and is incapable of making a competitive sporty car.
The NSX came out when Ferrari had an aging model. The S2000 came out when the Z3 and Boxster weren't great yet, now that they are, no more S2000. The integra and prelude for the most part had more power and out performed everything in their segment, then the wrx, ms3, mazdaspeed3, etc etc all came out, now we have the Si.
So we'll see if this new CRZ can finally bring a competitive car that speaks to enthusiasts and sway people from the GTI, mini, etc, or will they just try to carve out another small niche and try to answer a question that no one answered. Yeah, hybrid folks really think to themselves, sigh, this prius is great, but I wish I could shift my own gears and not be that much faster than a fit. Hey, if the the new crz hybrid type r comes out and delivers 50mpg and goes to 60 in the 5s and handles like a brz, then heck yeah. But the BRZ has 200hp and owners have flirted with 40mpg, so if Honda comes out with a hybrid that achieves marginally better mpg and same performance, why would enthusiasts want it?
Meh, whatever, I'll reserve judgement until it comes out as I'm sure Jonboy has some Honda corporate response to all of this.
So in the end, there is core group of loyal enthusiasts that Honda is neglecting in the pursuit of being conservative and making profit. Nothing wrong with that per se, but that's jsut an excuse for this primary point: Honda forgot about their enthusiasts and is incapable of making a competitive sporty car.
The NSX came out when Ferrari had an aging model. The S2000 came out when the Z3 and Boxster weren't great yet, now that they are, no more S2000. The integra and prelude for the most part had more power and out performed everything in their segment, then the wrx, ms3, mazdaspeed3, etc etc all came out, now we have the Si.
So we'll see if this new CRZ can finally bring a competitive car that speaks to enthusiasts and sway people from the GTI, mini, etc, or will they just try to carve out another small niche and try to answer a question that no one answered. Yeah, hybrid folks really think to themselves, sigh, this prius is great, but I wish I could shift my own gears and not be that much faster than a fit. Hey, if the the new crz hybrid type r comes out and delivers 50mpg and goes to 60 in the 5s and handles like a brz, then heck yeah. But the BRZ has 200hp and owners have flirted with 40mpg, so if Honda comes out with a hybrid that achieves marginally better mpg and same performance, why would enthusiasts want it?
Meh, whatever, I'll reserve judgement until it comes out as I'm sure Jonboy has some Honda corporate response to all of this.
I will tell you what I'm a fanboy of, me, my dog, my home, and my life. Can't understand fanboyism when it comes to products, consumer goods, etc. Some people post here, and I almost wonder why they do because you know their response before they even type. Like talking to a Democrat or Republican. You already know what they are going to say before they even start.
Honda is Honda. They do what they want. The smart thing would have been to drop the Si motor in the CRZ from the get go but nope. What they have done over the last years is push, the people you reference, away, and into other vehicles.
What possible product confusion would take place from the Civic Si and the CR-Z have the same motor cause?
What car at $35K or less has replaced the S2000 in the marketplace? I'm not seeing anything. The miata, cheap and slow. BRZ cheap, and slow - no plans for any amount of real power. Projected STI version to have all of 250 HP. To beat the performance of the S2000 you're spending more then $35K. So I'm at a loss to what you're actually flapping your gums about here.
Who exactly is currently producing the S2000 replacement in the marketplace to show that there is real demand for a raw and sport open top roadster under $35k?
[/quote]
Since you asked.
I only have to go by this forum, which I have been a member of for the better part of a decade. S2k owner after owner has gone to another car and it hasn't been Honda. Why? Because they haven't come with a new performance anything in 13 years. STi's (myself and many others), EVO's, BMW's of various flavors, a whole list of other manu's and platforms. Thread after thread (I got rid of the S2000), some come back and buy a used one, many don't. What better place to find this information you request then this very forum, a S2000 dedicated site. They'd rather have an updated S2k with maybe a V6 or FI, but the car doesn't even exist. As was mentioned, Honda used to lead FWD performance, not any more. Their rivals have taken that and ran with it so Honda doesn't even have that any more. They are focused on cookie cutter models and bean counting. They've made it abundantly clear, their niche customers do_not_matter or word it differently, their sport-y fans/customers do_not_matter.
product confusion? LMAO. For years, Honda offered a Civic Si, and a CRX Si. Both cars sold, both. You being up Honda's arse three ways to Sunday, should know that. What did the press say about the CRz, the journalists? "Should have put the Si motor in it." And the sales have reflected that, that car has been a failure. But with a different engine choice it would have sold more. There was a heap of interest prior to release. Then upon release, massive underwhelm.
Last time I checked Nissan makes a coupe and drop top Z, both sell (purchase prices I see are around 35k to boot and they've recently dropped the price). I see them on the road, everywhere. What is that car? A performance coupe/convertible. What is Toybaru doing with the FRS? Making a convertible. Is either a S2k? No, but the price reflects that, in today's dollars, much much cheaper than the almighty S2000. So competitors see a demand for performance/sporty cars and continue to make them and have over the last decade? What about Honda.
Here is a question for you. What does Honda offer to compete with the G37 sedan and coupe? The Nissan Z, the STi, the EVO, the Mustang, the Camaro, the Vette, the FRS/BRZ, BMW 1, 335, 5 series, Porsche Boxster, Cayman, the GTI (Hatch), the Golf R, MS3 (hatch, FI)? Nothing. Those are just a multitude of models off the top of my head, there are more. Some premium ($$), many not (Sub 30k), what model does Honda have for any of them? None. Are all these vast amount of mfr's crazy or is Honda just stupid? Apparently all these models sell and provide some sort of profit margin or they wouldn't make them. And all of these cars have been bought by members here and posted over the last decade. They were bought because Honda has no answer to any of them.
Just because this is a S2000 site it's not chocked full of blind fan-bois. Cartalk is one of the best car discussion communities on the Internet. And we already have one Jonboy.
09-18-2013, 09:47 AM
#46
There was no good volume for the last 5 years of the S2000 during the peak of the US economy. There is no demand now. That's the point. Best I can tell they are seaking to find budget fun by doing something different. CR-Z is different, nothing really like it. I don't care for it but people buy it.
People love to yap that the s2k is such an awesome car, and WE agree that it is, but guess what folks, it didn't sell. Americans don't like small/lightweight cars. They like lots of power/more room/etc. I'd bet the 350z outsold the s2k even though the s2k is what I like.
People buy porsches primarily because they're porsches, that's the honest truth. You either make the car cheap enough that the younger crowd can afford it (like the BRZ), or you shoot for the higher end where there's a lot of competition and you're competing with the big boys. Unfortunately, honda doesn't have the cojones to fight with the big boys which is why we've yet to see a RWD anything besides the S2K and NSX.
Unfortunately, the s2k doesn't appeal to the masses. We're a niche, and big companies don't make money in niche markets.
09-18-2013, 09:48 AM
#47
Very well said Tommy!
09-18-2013, 10:02 AM
#48
Moderator
People love to yap that the s2k is such an awesome car, and WE agree that it is, but guess what folks, it didn't sell. Americans don't like small/lightweight cars. They like lots of power/more room/etc. I'd bet the 350z outsold the s2k even though the s2k is what I like.
Now, go look at CR-Z sales numbers (for automatics and manuals), and try and figure out why Honda is talking about making a more powerful version of that car.
09-18-2013, 10:11 AM
#49
Originally Posted by SlowTeg' timestamp='1379526451' post='22784942
People love to yap that the s2k is such an awesome car, and WE agree that it is, but guess what folks, it didn't sell. Americans don't like small/lightweight cars. They like lots of power/more room/etc. I'd bet the 350z outsold the s2k even though the s2k is what I like.
Now, go look at CR-Z sales numbers (for automatics and manuals), and try and figure out why Honda is talking about making a more powerful version of that car.
09-18-2013, 10:26 AM
#50
Saki,
Very good point. If it came with an automatic perhaps it would've done much better. People have been clamoring for Honda to build a RWD sport sedan since forever, yet they don't build one. I'm not sure what the reason is.. I guess they're worried their TL sales would suffer and don't realize it's a different market?
Very good point. If it came with an automatic perhaps it would've done much better. People have been clamoring for Honda to build a RWD sport sedan since forever, yet they don't build one. I'm not sure what the reason is.. I guess they're worried their TL sales would suffer and don't realize it's a different market?