New Civic Type R
07-27-2022, 07:51 AM
#51
In all reality, the CTR's are capable vehicles that will embarrass many AWD/RWD variants. I read the posts in here thinking that they immediately dismiss the car due to the drive train is just unaware of it's capability.
In the reviews and comparisons between AWD vehicles (GRY included) and the current gen Type R, the Type R constantly comes out on top. What makes you think the GRC will be better then the GRY, which is a homologation model? I am not bashing the GRC as I am on the wait list at several dealerships in the hopes of securing one but I do not expect it to drive better then the Type R.
In the reviews and comparisons between AWD vehicles (GRY included) and the current gen Type R, the Type R constantly comes out on top. What makes you think the GRC will be better then the GRY, which is a homologation model? I am not bashing the GRC as I am on the wait list at several dealerships in the hopes of securing one but I do not expect it to drive better then the Type R.
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07-27-2022, 08:35 AM
#52
I've seen a few of the new Integras in person, and IMO they do not look good. Also surprised how big they are. Big whoof.
07-27-2022, 11:29 AM
#53
07-27-2022, 01:17 PM
#54
They have one at the Hondajet booth at the Oshkosh air show. It looks nice, but they also had an A Spec Integra in slate grey with black wheels (in the background) that I must say looked really slick and the Type R engine in the Integra as a Type S would really be a great little car. First time at the airshow and that was a really fun day.
For all the desktop racing, I never drove the last one, I had a the last gen Golf R. Even the last gen Golf R would spank the Civic in a straight line. My Golf R was boring to drive, and everyone I have heard from or read that drove the Civic Type R said it was a BLAST to drive. Isn't that what it is about? If it is more fun, I would rather own a Civic/Integra, stop light racing be damned. Let the Golf smoke me, I will just have fun.
I can't explain all that creates so much fun in my Civic Si, it just is, it can't be quantified. Driving my Civic Si for 8 months now and the whole combination is what creates the fun factor, no single detail. I would love a ride in a CTR, the fun factor will be very high. It looks much better than many of the new cars out there too, no real complaints on the exterior like the old version had.
07-27-2022, 01:27 PM
#55
It’s certainly not whining. It’s a discussion forum and people are discussing. Whining is what teenage girls do when they lost out on getting Taylor Swift tickets or when a child drops its ice cream or sucker.
What you are describing, is the same garbage repeated on forums forever. Ring times, oh VIR. Ok, do they perform these tests in the winter, with winter tires? How about in the pouring rain? I ask this because vehicles should be tested in 4 seasons as most places have them. VIR, the ring, are the vehicles even using the same tires? Do you think the mfr’s use ringers for these tests? These are rhetorical questions.
AWD comes into play other than warm/dry. So obviously a RWD or even a FWD platform can best an AWD platform when conditions suit it. Do that little VIR test in heavy rain and see what happens, or in the snow. The lap times will be vastly different and vehicles will be in a vastly different order. So you have to ask yourself how much weight do you even give such tests if they are done in one condition only? They don’t mean much to me. They are a nice reference but in reality a grain of salt. I’ve never bought a vehicle based on such things.
Who says it’s going to be better than the Yaris? It’s just the US version and all we get.
I immediately dismiss the CTR because it is indeed FWD. I’ve driven it man, multiple times. I know what it can do when conditions are right. It’s fast, handles well, and the ones I drove had solid 6MT’s. One owner did report it would overheat at the track but I didn’t pay that much mind because here it can be 106 and high humidity, anything can overheat at our tracks and everything needs track prep to me. Whether that be cooling, brakes, or both. The other one was tuned and I got wheel spin and torque steer in the heat/dry so it doesn’t take too much thought to know in anything other than perfect conditions, it’s going to be worse. It’s physics. 4 wheels putting power down provide more traction than 2. Yes that can be a negative in perfect conditions but it’s a big positive when the weather is far from perfect. And that’s the class more or less. The EVO, STI, Focus RS, WRX, Golf R, all AWD. All rally inspired one way or the other and all meant for all weather all the time. If I want an ideal conditions car I’m buying RWD all day, FWD just never even enters into thought. Much more enjoyable driving to me getting pushed around turns compared to being pulled around them. I’ll willing and able to take the AWD hit because in the inclement weather here, the drivetrain is phenomenal. All the while still performing quite well in the dry. I’ve owned LSD FWD and RWD vehicles prior and they can’t hold a candle to an all wheel drivetrain with diffs or torque vectoring half shafts in inclement weather, the cold, etc. Twisties, track, or just on the freeway. And this doesn’t matter to me if it’s a performance vehicle or a pedestrian vehicle, hell my compact truck is AWD and has torque vectoring rear half shafts. My DD wasn’t offered in AWD or it’d be parked in my driveway.
AWD means some thing to some, to others it don’t mean squat. I tend to favor it because our weather is so variable here, I mean one day it can be 0 degrees, or 18 degrees, and within days it’s 70, then back to 30 degrees. In our winters if we get snow or ice, it lasts a week at a time at best, but we do get these torrential rains that piss down. I mean some years we get double the rain fall Seattle does except it isn’t spread out over 9 months like it does there. I know how it is there too as I lived there for a year. What we get is the same precipitation but in mere days, weeks or a couple of months. I cannot count how many times I’ve had standing water on my grass. Flood rain happen every year. We’ll be in a drought, then bam, here comes the rain. Just a few years ago that rain cranked up in September and didn’t really stop until the following April. The whole damn time it was wet. So that variable weather, when it pops your ass and you have a track day scheduled, it’s a big meh with AWD and you just roll. Or say it hasn’t let up for months and you want go corner in your local twisties because you are tired of being stuck at the house due to the weather. AWD is night and day to me in those conditions compared to FWD or even RWD. I can go out and have some fun no matter what the damn weather is doing.
And Honda has an outstanding AWD system that could have made this CTR a real contender in the class. But they continue to want to compete in the field of one. That’s OK too, it’s a great car. In the dry it’s fast. Handles well. We all have our reasons for what we buy. One man’s my precious is another man’s trash and vice versa.
What you are describing, is the same garbage repeated on forums forever. Ring times, oh VIR. Ok, do they perform these tests in the winter, with winter tires? How about in the pouring rain? I ask this because vehicles should be tested in 4 seasons as most places have them. VIR, the ring, are the vehicles even using the same tires? Do you think the mfr’s use ringers for these tests? These are rhetorical questions.
AWD comes into play other than warm/dry. So obviously a RWD or even a FWD platform can best an AWD platform when conditions suit it. Do that little VIR test in heavy rain and see what happens, or in the snow. The lap times will be vastly different and vehicles will be in a vastly different order. So you have to ask yourself how much weight do you even give such tests if they are done in one condition only? They don’t mean much to me. They are a nice reference but in reality a grain of salt. I’ve never bought a vehicle based on such things.
Who says it’s going to be better than the Yaris? It’s just the US version and all we get.
I immediately dismiss the CTR because it is indeed FWD. I’ve driven it man, multiple times. I know what it can do when conditions are right. It’s fast, handles well, and the ones I drove had solid 6MT’s. One owner did report it would overheat at the track but I didn’t pay that much mind because here it can be 106 and high humidity, anything can overheat at our tracks and everything needs track prep to me. Whether that be cooling, brakes, or both. The other one was tuned and I got wheel spin and torque steer in the heat/dry so it doesn’t take too much thought to know in anything other than perfect conditions, it’s going to be worse. It’s physics. 4 wheels putting power down provide more traction than 2. Yes that can be a negative in perfect conditions but it’s a big positive when the weather is far from perfect. And that’s the class more or less. The EVO, STI, Focus RS, WRX, Golf R, all AWD. All rally inspired one way or the other and all meant for all weather all the time. If I want an ideal conditions car I’m buying RWD all day, FWD just never even enters into thought. Much more enjoyable driving to me getting pushed around turns compared to being pulled around them. I’ll willing and able to take the AWD hit because in the inclement weather here, the drivetrain is phenomenal. All the while still performing quite well in the dry. I’ve owned LSD FWD and RWD vehicles prior and they can’t hold a candle to an all wheel drivetrain with diffs or torque vectoring half shafts in inclement weather, the cold, etc. Twisties, track, or just on the freeway. And this doesn’t matter to me if it’s a performance vehicle or a pedestrian vehicle, hell my compact truck is AWD and has torque vectoring rear half shafts. My DD wasn’t offered in AWD or it’d be parked in my driveway.
AWD means some thing to some, to others it don’t mean squat. I tend to favor it because our weather is so variable here, I mean one day it can be 0 degrees, or 18 degrees, and within days it’s 70, then back to 30 degrees. In our winters if we get snow or ice, it lasts a week at a time at best, but we do get these torrential rains that piss down. I mean some years we get double the rain fall Seattle does except it isn’t spread out over 9 months like it does there. I know how it is there too as I lived there for a year. What we get is the same precipitation but in mere days, weeks or a couple of months. I cannot count how many times I’ve had standing water on my grass. Flood rain happen every year. We’ll be in a drought, then bam, here comes the rain. Just a few years ago that rain cranked up in September and didn’t really stop until the following April. The whole damn time it was wet. So that variable weather, when it pops your ass and you have a track day scheduled, it’s a big meh with AWD and you just roll. Or say it hasn’t let up for months and you want go corner in your local twisties because you are tired of being stuck at the house due to the weather. AWD is night and day to me in those conditions compared to FWD or even RWD. I can go out and have some fun no matter what the damn weather is doing.
And Honda has an outstanding AWD system that could have made this CTR a real contender in the class. But they continue to want to compete in the field of one. That’s OK too, it’s a great car. In the dry it’s fast. Handles well. We all have our reasons for what we buy. One man’s my precious is another man’s trash and vice versa.
Well, this is all true which is why I was pointing out the performance value of the CTR, from the research that I did the prior gen pretty much matched and even surpassed its AWD halo contemporaries, GRY included. The GRC is going to be improved but so is the CTR, so I imagine it will be a drivers race.
So all good there, but where we separate though is that I don't buy cars based on where they land on a list of track of times, or 60 times. I reference those data points to illustrate the performance value proposition, but end of the day we all make personal choices on what to buy, and what the stop watch isn't as high as other criteria on my list.
Such as it being FWD. This is not snobbery, but experience torque steer once or understeer from overworked front tires and it's enough. I will acquiesce that a change of driving style and habits can mitigate some of my qualms, like I can coax some oversteer by lifting, but when things aren't right like it's wet, or you don't plan ahead and such, FWD has its limitations. Nail the line though and no doubt FWD can hang with anything.
The other thing is that Honda did a great job in making it work with the power from the factory, but these cars have their appeal because of their potential, and that's when the FWD becomes more of a deterrent.
But back to what I originally said, as a car that can serve DD duties, and hoon on the weekends, and if you plan to keep it relatively stock to make it a good reliable practical car, you don't give up much if anything because if a GRC or Golf R shows up, it's pretty much a fair fight. Additionally, I'm hardly Michael Schumacher either, so I'm sure a CTR will be more than enough car for me anyway.
Hence why I'm keeping an open mind about it, there's gotta be something to it after all, but I'll take RWD/AWD.
So all good there, but where we separate though is that I don't buy cars based on where they land on a list of track of times, or 60 times. I reference those data points to illustrate the performance value proposition, but end of the day we all make personal choices on what to buy, and what the stop watch isn't as high as other criteria on my list.
Such as it being FWD. This is not snobbery, but experience torque steer once or understeer from overworked front tires and it's enough. I will acquiesce that a change of driving style and habits can mitigate some of my qualms, like I can coax some oversteer by lifting, but when things aren't right like it's wet, or you don't plan ahead and such, FWD has its limitations. Nail the line though and no doubt FWD can hang with anything.
The other thing is that Honda did a great job in making it work with the power from the factory, but these cars have their appeal because of their potential, and that's when the FWD becomes more of a deterrent.
But back to what I originally said, as a car that can serve DD duties, and hoon on the weekends, and if you plan to keep it relatively stock to make it a good reliable practical car, you don't give up much if anything because if a GRC or Golf R shows up, it's pretty much a fair fight. Additionally, I'm hardly Michael Schumacher either, so I'm sure a CTR will be more than enough car for me anyway.
Hence why I'm keeping an open mind about it, there's gotta be something to it after all, but I'll take RWD/AWD.
There's how it tests and there is what its like to drive RWD vs FWD. I get people think it doesn't matter but it does to some of us. FWD was never intended for performance cars and they've made it work because its cheap/fuel economy. It's not my thing, just like AWD 50/50 solutions don't allow the car to rotate. I like RWD biased AWD platforms, this is my preference. Some of us just wont entertain FWD platforms or lame AWD platforms because we want different.
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silvio1522 (07-27-2022)
07-27-2022, 02:12 PM
#56
I've never driven the CTR either, but a couple of the local autocrossers that have say that the CTR is very neutral to slightly oversteer oriented for a FWD car. That's coming from a guy who runs a W10 MR2 that looks like a complete handful. Part of the reason that the CTR is pretty competitive in autocross is the weight it saves compared to the other AWD boost buggies. That and the fact that it can fit 275 on stock wheel widths for class rules. If I didn't have the S2000 already I'd be highly interested in one and probably cross shopping with the GR86, GR Carola and Supra. I know they're not all in the same category in performance and price point but they all interest me.
07-27-2022, 05:02 PM
#57
I've never driven the CTR either, but a couple of the local autocrossers that have say that the CTR is very neutral to slightly oversteer oriented for a FWD car. That's coming from a guy who runs a W10 MR2 that looks like a complete handful. Part of the reason that the CTR is pretty competitive in autocross is the weight it saves compared to the other AWD boost buggies. That and the fact that it can fit 275 on stock wheel widths for class rules. If I didn't have the S2000 already I'd be highly interested in one and probably cross shopping with the GR86, GR Carola and Supra. I know they're not all in the same category in performance and price point but they all interest me.
You pointed out some good points. Historically, until the GR's came out, the CTR was notably lighter than its AWD competition, approximately 300lbs or so. Honda also has always done a great job with chassis tuning and such, so combine those elements and then stick on really sticky wide tires and yeah it can hang with pretty much anything.
Some of the most fun I've ever had driving a car was in a FWD car, so that point is not lost on me, but all things equal, I'd take RWD or AWD simply because there's a certain level of consistency that can be achieved, and as the power levels get higher, that point becomes louder.
But that's crazy, 275 width tires stock? I think the twins start rubbing badly at 255.
The rain on the parade perhaps is the GRC because it is about the same weight, should be about the same power, and has an advanced AWD system.
07-27-2022, 05:13 PM
#58
You've got the right approach on this one, these cars generate a lot of fun. I read a headline that said "Golf R killer" but no way it will not even be close to a Golf R in any straight line race. But I can't wait to see some of the road course testing that comes out in the near future, it is going to spank some much bigger dogs on the track, I think we will all be surprised how well it does. Even my lowly Civic Si pulls .94 G on the skidpad, this CTR is going to be quite impressive in my opinion.
I can't explain all that creates so much fun in my Civic Si, it just is, it can't be quantified. Driving my Civic Si for 8 months now and the whole combination is what creates the fun factor, no single detail. I would love a ride in a CTR, the fun factor will be very high. It looks much better than many of the new cars out there too, no real complaints on the exterior like the old version had.
I can't explain all that creates so much fun in my Civic Si, it just is, it can't be quantified. Driving my Civic Si for 8 months now and the whole combination is what creates the fun factor, no single detail. I would love a ride in a CTR, the fun factor will be very high. It looks much better than many of the new cars out there too, no real complaints on the exterior like the old version had.
Good inputs go a very long way. Honda has always done a fantastic job with shifter feel. Also, their chassis tuning is probably one of the most consistent, the cars just feel solid and responsive. They never feel reluctant, they have this mechanical feeling that many other cars lack.
I think some of their secret sauce is having a satisfying shifter, easy pedals, and a quick steering rack. I also think they pay attention to where the axis of rotation relative to where the driver is, I dunno, being a short hood FWD car, there's a certain immersive feeling you get with it, kinda like a mid engine car. I find Honda pays alot of attention to driver experience, they always nail ergonomics for instance. I think if something fits, even something cheap can feel supremely premium.
Take the S550 Mustang, a platform that I love, but the steering box gets in the way of my knee to do heel toes which I don't have a problem in any other car including the tiny ND2, the steering wheel is huge and just feels like you're driving a fat tire go kart without power steering, so it has this rubbery feeling hard to explain, and the chassis while much more solid than older cars still doesnt have the immediacy that smaller, well sorted cars have, and the shifter does not like to be rushed and while clean it does lack a certain satisfying mechanical feel. So you get the feeling that they designed the car, and then figured out how to put a human in it, whereas other cars they engineer the car around the person.
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zeroptzero (07-28-2022)
07-27-2022, 06:51 PM
#59
You pointed out some good points. Historically, until the GR's came out, the CTR was notably lighter than its AWD competition, approximately 300lbs or so. Honda also has always done a great job with chassis tuning and such, so combine those elements and then stick on really sticky wide tires and yeah it can hang with pretty much anything.
Some of the most fun I've ever had driving a car was in a FWD car, so that point is not lost on me, but all things equal, I'd take RWD or AWD simply because there's a certain level of consistency that can be achieved, and as the power levels get higher, that point becomes louder.
But that's crazy, 275 width tires stock? I think the twins start rubbing badly at 255.
The rain on the parade perhaps is the GRC because it is about the same weight, should be about the same power, and has an advanced AWD system.
Some of the most fun I've ever had driving a car was in a FWD car, so that point is not lost on me, but all things equal, I'd take RWD or AWD simply because there's a certain level of consistency that can be achieved, and as the power levels get higher, that point becomes louder.
But that's crazy, 275 width tires stock? I think the twins start rubbing badly at 255.
The rain on the parade perhaps is the GRC because it is about the same weight, should be about the same power, and has an advanced AWD system.
The CTR can probably fit more than 275-285 in the front easily however from what I've read it's the rear fender that has some clearance issues, need to trim the unibody that's under the fender cover other wise it rubs.
The 1st gen 86 could fit 255s easily however the second gen is having some problems it appears. I can't deny that I revel in the schadenfreude slightly given the S2000s fitment issues. Apparently much of the suspension components are the same however the 2nd gen 86 has the rear bumper tab in a different position and this causes rubbing. So you need some stupid specific offsets for the car and decent camber to fit 255. The front likes lower offsets because you need in board clearance for the struts however you can't go too low because in the rear you run into outboard clearance issues with the bumper tab.
07-27-2022, 09:28 PM
#60
I mean we got purists where if it’s a performance car, RWD is the only thing they’ll accept. AWD is “cheating” to them. I get that too. Fun driving to them is only ass hanging out oversteer. I get it because the last thing I’d want is a motorcycle with front and rear drive. On a bike it’s RWD only ICE only or I’m not interested. They can make whatever EV bike they want, not interested.
Or Honda “nerds” like “some” of the CTR buyers where it really doesn’t matter what it does, or what it don’t, it’s a Hype R. It’s a “JDM yo” status symbol for them. I’ve got a guy with one at my gym, with all the mods done to it that would drive Walt in Gran Torino, absolutely batshit. It’s riced out to the max. I talked to the owner. It’ll never see a track, or a corner that isn’t an underpass. Acceleration is stop light or highway pull, that’s it. Most buy them for image.
The good thing we got now is competition in this space, so we finally have some flavors instead of just 1-2 things. In the price space now we have the Twins, the Miata. Then you have the WRX, CTR, soon to be GRC, and the Golf R. IE shit that don’t cost 50, 60, 100k or more. It’s been a minute. 5-6 different manus offering performance something that is somewhat affordable comparatively. RWD, AWD, and FWD offerings. Coupes, vert (wish there was a choice of vert at this price area), sedan, and hatchbacks although there is only one remaining 3 door hatch on the market, the JCW. That’s a good thing as everyone has a somewhat affordable choice now. I think we can all agree on that. if 100% ICE 6MT is going away soon as all indicators say, at least at these price points, shit, finally we have some choices. Toyota didn’t make shit for over 20 years. Now they got 3 GR models. Honda hasn’t had an “all new” thing in the performance space since the S2000 which is why we are all here. VW has been consistent with their offering, same for Mazda. But the others haven’t even been around. Go up to 50k and now you add a 6th or 7th mfr with the Z, and then include the Supra. Golden days to me at the end. And I do think it’s the end over the next 5 years unless you enjoy dropping 100k on shit with a DCT.
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ThreeD (07-28-2022)