New Civic Type R
07-24-2022, 03:50 PM
#21
The sad part is you or I will never likely drive one unless we have friends who may get one. It will be a lottery for these cars. Production numbers are spread over a three year production run, then the car will disappear for good as EV takes over. I think Canada gets less than 500 copies over the three year production run, that is nothing for 30 million people. The US may get 5000 units, once again over three years. In order for a dealer to get one they had to sell five of the previous gen CTR's, so not every dealer can get them. The production numbers on the last gen were many times higher than what this will be.
I wonder how much of the production limitations are due to the EV event horizon or supply chain issues. Considering Germany has already backed out of the EV commitment, and Americans are shall we say divided about it, and even Toyota hedging against it, I dunno just seems like if there were no supply chain issues they'd be making more of these cars. I gotta think that the spot and resources on the assembly line going towards a high margin vehicle, like a higher spec SUV/CUV, has to weigh in on how many tighter margin cars they make.
07-24-2022, 04:35 PM
#22
The other thing is the performance. For the sake of having a succinct discussion I'll just use 60 times, 0-60 on it is in the low to mid 5s, so it's not in the same realm as the Golf R, RS, or a would be STI, it puts it right at the same levels of the GTI and WRX. And the Core doesn't have all the diff wizardry, so low 30s actually makes a ton of sense, becaues it is not a 12k discounted Golf R in terms of performance.
07-24-2022, 04:59 PM
#23
Exactly. We can argue about FWD vs RWD but this car is a CAR at the end of the day. This isn't a sports car, it needs to deliver more to the customer than just a driving experience. This is the car that I would take to Costco, throw the hypothetical kids in the back, and drive a canyon road on the way home. This is the car that I would take on a road trip to LA with 3 friends + luggage and we would all trade seats ripping it in the canyons. Have you seen the trunk on a GRC? The GRC is a little pocket rocket but good luck making a Costco trip with it, especially if you had to carry 4 people with the back seats up. Golf? Sure, the Golf is practical but is a) numb/boring to drive and b) reliability of a VW..
The driving experience is first and foremost to me. Last time I checked they do not make AWD 6MT coupes so this class of car is about it unless you add 100k and buy a C4S. So I’m looking at anything with performance first and foremost and anything else is secondary. If I needed a vehicle for kids and Costco or road trips I’d buy a minivan, not a compact car with a turbo. To me wrong tool for the job.
I go to Costco nearly every week of the year in my DD hatch. I do take notice of the “4 people” type scenario and they are always in SUV’s, CUV’s, full size sedans, etc. I cannot recall someone in a compact hatchback of any make rolling through there to load the car up + kids, etc. There are just much better vehicles on the market for family duty, shopping trips, road trips, etc. I’ve driven all the vehicles in this class and driven with people in them. Throw some grown adults in them and everything changes. You are adding hundreds of pounds. And if the driver is tall, 6 foot or taller, well it better be a kid behind them. A grown adult is not going to like that on a road trip seated behind.
I do find it humorous that so many default hatchbacks to commuters, kid haulers, Costco vehicles, this kind of shit. Compact cars don’t really make for ideal vehicles for any of that. I’m sure for many that’s what it is going to be. A daily driver with some performance and utility. Thank God there isn’t a law or requirement for it to be that for all. If I were buying it for fair weather performance I’d save thousands and buy a Twin. If I wanted all weather performance, the GRC offers a better drivetrain and even with diffs with be the same money or less. If I wanted to make a passenger van out of it I’d just skip it and buy a Minivan. 40k for a front wheel drive car. Marketing never ceases to amaze me.
I think I want the Morizo even more now, as it will just piss people off and f up their stereotypes that much more. “You don’t even get a backseat whaaaaaaat!” “What did you buy this for?” I bought it to drive dude. You know driving dynamics, performance, in all weather? I can hear heads exploding all over the internet right now.
07-24-2022, 09:45 PM
#24
This is completely incorrect. The Core has 3 packages available. PP (diffs), Tech (JBL sound system +wireless charging), and a cold weather package (heated seats/wheel). So yes the Core can have all the diff wizardry. Actually Core PP will be the value out of all the trims for performance. The GRC is rated at 300HP from the factory which is right there with the Golf R and STi, but weighs less. So 0-60, straight line blah, should be all similar between 6MT models. I think you are working off some very incorrect information that you need a Circuit Edition to gain Torsen diffs.
I've said that I'm not up to speed on the grc, so you would be right, thanks for pointing that out.
Does the diffs increase the acceration times then? I assume the grc will then be faster than the gry, more power but more weight, didn't do the math but I think the edge would go to the grc? Golf R is in the 4s, gry was in the 5s like the gti and wrx. Ctr though seems to right in between.
Yeah wasn't aware they were going to offer the three packs until just now, finally found an article that spelled it out. Still waiting on pricing though but if it starts at 32 and performance pack bring to..too. 35 or less, that's going to be a bargain. So legit type R, golf r level performance for alot less.
If we were placing bets though, not sure I'd make that one, seems a bit too good to be true. Or at least it may be like the base tesla model 3 or Mustang performance pack 2, you hat won't find them.
But we shall see.
07-24-2022, 09:55 PM
#25
We can argue about both. It’s not a sports car to you but it is a performance car to me. I’m going to use it as a sports car driving it hard, in all weather conditions, in my local twisties and at the track. In my stable of vehicles it becomes the sports/performance vehicle of choice in the winter, and inclement weather. I already have fair weather machines for when it’s nice outside, or warm/dry. They go like stink in those conditions. Rain, cold, not so much. Then there is scheduling a track day where I live where the weather is highly variable. You pick the date, pay/schedule. Only to have the weather be ass that day. Well I paid my moneys and am going anyway so AWD is damn nice to have. But I get that other people would just press skip.
The driving experience is first and foremost to me. Last time I checked they do not make AWD 6MT coupes so this class of car is about it unless you add 100k and buy a C4S. So I’m looking at anything with performance first and foremost and anything else is secondary. If I needed a vehicle for kids and Costco or road trips I’d buy a minivan, not a compact car with a turbo. To me wrong tool for the job.
I go to Costco nearly every week of the year in my DD hatch. I do take notice of the “4 people” type scenario and they are always in SUV’s, CUV’s, full size sedans, etc. I cannot recall someone in a compact hatchback of any make rolling through there to load the car up + kids, etc. There are just much better vehicles on the market for family duty, shopping trips, road trips, etc. I’ve driven all the vehicles in this class and driven with people in them. Throw some grown adults in them and everything changes. You are adding hundreds of pounds. And if the driver is tall, 6 foot or taller, well it better be a kid behind them. A grown adult is not going to like that on a road trip seated behind.
I do find it humorous that so many default hatchbacks to commuters, kid haulers, Costco vehicles, this kind of shit. Compact cars don’t really make for ideal vehicles for any of that. I’m sure for many that’s what it is going to be. A daily driver with some performance and utility. Thank God there isn’t a law or requirement for it to be that for all. If I were buying it for fair weather performance I’d save thousands and buy a Twin. If I wanted all weather performance, the GRC offers a better drivetrain and even with diffs with be the same money or less. If I wanted to make a passenger van out of it I’d just skip it and buy a Minivan. 40k for a front wheel drive car. Marketing never ceases to amaze me.
I think I want the Morizo even more now, as it will just piss people off and f up their stereotypes that much more. “You don’t even get a backseat whaaaaaaat!” “What did you buy this for?” I bought it to drive dude. You know driving dynamics, performance, in all weather? I can hear heads exploding all over the internet right now.
The driving experience is first and foremost to me. Last time I checked they do not make AWD 6MT coupes so this class of car is about it unless you add 100k and buy a C4S. So I’m looking at anything with performance first and foremost and anything else is secondary. If I needed a vehicle for kids and Costco or road trips I’d buy a minivan, not a compact car with a turbo. To me wrong tool for the job.
I go to Costco nearly every week of the year in my DD hatch. I do take notice of the “4 people” type scenario and they are always in SUV’s, CUV’s, full size sedans, etc. I cannot recall someone in a compact hatchback of any make rolling through there to load the car up + kids, etc. There are just much better vehicles on the market for family duty, shopping trips, road trips, etc. I’ve driven all the vehicles in this class and driven with people in them. Throw some grown adults in them and everything changes. You are adding hundreds of pounds. And if the driver is tall, 6 foot or taller, well it better be a kid behind them. A grown adult is not going to like that on a road trip seated behind.
I do find it humorous that so many default hatchbacks to commuters, kid haulers, Costco vehicles, this kind of shit. Compact cars don’t really make for ideal vehicles for any of that. I’m sure for many that’s what it is going to be. A daily driver with some performance and utility. Thank God there isn’t a law or requirement for it to be that for all. If I were buying it for fair weather performance I’d save thousands and buy a Twin. If I wanted all weather performance, the GRC offers a better drivetrain and even with diffs with be the same money or less. If I wanted to make a passenger van out of it I’d just skip it and buy a Minivan. 40k for a front wheel drive car. Marketing never ceases to amaze me.
I think I want the Morizo even more now, as it will just piss people off and f up their stereotypes that much more. “You don’t even get a backseat whaaaaaaat!” “What did you buy this for?” I bought it to drive dude. You know driving dynamics, performance, in all weather? I can hear heads exploding all over the internet right now.
In urban areas, hatches and such do serve multiple purposes since many don't even have a designated parking spot. CUVs are king, but the car enthusiast or those with any sporty ambitions get a hot hatch for vehicle, or those scrimping in every last dollar although now cuvs and hatchbacks are pretty much the same price.
Consider too that the civic now is bigger than the accord was 20 years ago.
The morizo is not a unique situation that won't blow people's heads like you think, it's just a stripped out version yes yes with a bit more power and upgrades, but a stripped down version that lots of other performance cars have done. It will have limited appeal but then become a resale darling. I think most people see that coming already, don't have to look much further than the s2000cr, Mustang svt, boss 302 laguna, m3 csl or whatever it was called, gt350r, jaguar svr, and a bunch of other cars we didn't get in the states. I'm sure those are sold out as well.
07-24-2022, 09:58 PM
#26
The sad part is you or I will never likely drive one unless we have friends who may get one. It will be a lottery for these cars. Production numbers are spread over a three year production run, then the car will disappear for good as EV takes over. I think Canada gets less than 550 copies over the three year production run, not even per year, so that is nothing for 30 million people. The US may get 5000-7000 units, once again over three years. In order for a dealer to get one they had to sell five of the previous gen CTR's, so not every dealer can get them. The production numbers on the last gen were many times higher than what this will be. This car will be bought by flippers and the cost will be driven up wildly, so I can't get too excited about this type of car, it will be ruined by the marketing approach.
Last edited by ThreeD; 07-24-2022 at 10:29 PM.
07-25-2022, 04:35 AM
#27
I have come across rumblings that mentioned the same, the new CTR will be made in very small numbers. I have no idea why as 90% of the car is shared with other models in their line up already. I feel they are purposely doing this to drive up the price for the last ICE model.
07-25-2022, 05:37 AM
#28
I really like the interior; that one narrow textured strip leading right from the instrument across the dash is evocative of the Porsche 914. Exterior, not so much. I'm not inclined to buy anyway* so who cares; I presume I'll be passed by these on the highway.
*(it's too heavy, too many doors, no hatch, and I really do not need that much HP anymore)
*(it's too heavy, too many doors, no hatch, and I really do not need that much HP anymore)
07-25-2022, 06:20 AM
#29
I actually like it. Honda did a good job with the styling, well as good of a job as you can do with an economy priced sedan. It's like they finally listened to actual buyers and not a bunch of online focus groups. I could do without the wing but it's appropriate I suppose for what it is. The interior is still best in class imo.
I dunno, I dig it, they did all the right things, even the wheels are smaller diameter, flares are subtle, all the vents are functional and real, even the three tailpipes looks better. Looks like the adults finally came back into the room.
Yeah, bummer that it has no AWD, but I suspect that this thing should be a decent amount cheaper than the Golf R and GR Corolla as well. I think theyre being hush hush to hopefully see where the Corolla ends up landing with price and performance.
Without a wing, this thing has total sleeper appeal, with the understated flares and everything else, dare I say it may be even be a downright good looking car.
I dunno, I dig it, they did all the right things, even the wheels are smaller diameter, flares are subtle, all the vents are functional and real, even the three tailpipes looks better. Looks like the adults finally came back into the room.
Yeah, bummer that it has no AWD, but I suspect that this thing should be a decent amount cheaper than the Golf R and GR Corolla as well. I think theyre being hush hush to hopefully see where the Corolla ends up landing with price and performance.
Without a wing, this thing has total sleeper appeal, with the understated flares and everything else, dare I say it may be even be a downright good looking car.
So, full disclaimer this is not a car I have any aspirations to buy, and I find myself in a unique situation defending a Type R product since I tend to be a critic of theirs, but for the sake of conversation here goes.
I agree that if all things are equal, I want power to the rear wheels. But that is not the car, doing so will compromise usually practicality, weight, and cost, oftentimes all three. FWD's advantages is cabin space, drivetrain simplicity, and cost.
So I disagree with the cost thing. Lots of people care, the people who make the purchasing decisions in year 2, 3, 8 in a model life cycle care a lot. Year 1 is all the idiot hype beast types that want to post on their socials so they can feel like a pseudo celebrity.
So consider this, the Golf, the Civic's natural competitior. The GTI starts at 30, then jumps to 34 for the SE, and then liek 37 or 38 for the top spec. The Golf R is 45k. The last gen Type R was 38k. So from a price standpoint, it competes more directly to the GTI than the Golf R, so it's feasible then that a would be GTI owner could look at the Type R and make that financial stretch. Meanwhile, all the magazine numbers, track times, all the crap people fixate on when buying a performance car, the Type R actually competes against the higher priced R. You don't see comparisons to the GTI, only the R and STIs of the world.
So in a lot of ways, if I want to compliment myself, it's a thinking man's choice. For the price of a loaded GTI/WRX, I can get Golf R/STI level performance, trade off being FWD vs AWD which only becomes a problem when I start driving well beyond legal limitations. But day to day driving won't notice it so much.
The problem I had with the prior gen is that it looked the way it did, here you make a sorta sensible decision and then it goes and looks like that. This current gen now just sorta fits in my head better.
I agree that if all things are equal, I want power to the rear wheels. But that is not the car, doing so will compromise usually practicality, weight, and cost, oftentimes all three. FWD's advantages is cabin space, drivetrain simplicity, and cost.
So I disagree with the cost thing. Lots of people care, the people who make the purchasing decisions in year 2, 3, 8 in a model life cycle care a lot. Year 1 is all the idiot hype beast types that want to post on their socials so they can feel like a pseudo celebrity.
So consider this, the Golf, the Civic's natural competitior. The GTI starts at 30, then jumps to 34 for the SE, and then liek 37 or 38 for the top spec. The Golf R is 45k. The last gen Type R was 38k. So from a price standpoint, it competes more directly to the GTI than the Golf R, so it's feasible then that a would be GTI owner could look at the Type R and make that financial stretch. Meanwhile, all the magazine numbers, track times, all the crap people fixate on when buying a performance car, the Type R actually competes against the higher priced R. You don't see comparisons to the GTI, only the R and STIs of the world.
So in a lot of ways, if I want to compliment myself, it's a thinking man's choice. For the price of a loaded GTI/WRX, I can get Golf R/STI level performance, trade off being FWD vs AWD which only becomes a problem when I start driving well beyond legal limitations. But day to day driving won't notice it so much.
The problem I had with the prior gen is that it looked the way it did, here you make a sorta sensible decision and then it goes and looks like that. This current gen now just sorta fits in my head better.
07-25-2022, 08:47 AM
#30
I'm not sure why you're comparing the cost of the previous generation (and pre inflation/supply chain issues) Type R with cars on sale now (WRX, GTI, Golf R, Si). All have seen BIG increases over their previous versions. And let's not forget the CTR Limited Edition (which, lets be honest, wasn't really anything special) cost $42-43k MSRP. You're smarter than that, haha. I don't consider it good value, but I fully expect the CTR to be priced around $41,000.
. As I've said, I'd take the GRC over it, even if it costs more than the CTR, which it looks like it possibly won't, matter fact, a Core and a performance pack may be a considerable discount if the rumblings are true. And I'd probably take the Golf R as well, and I can make a strong situation dependent case for the GTI and WRX as well.
I know the CTR put down some great (magazine type) numbers vs its AWD halo car contemporaries, which makes it good value considering IIRC it was cheaper than them, but the price difference wasn't life changing or class differentiating, and it's still FWD, so let's see how it behaves over the course of an entire track day. These points are not lost on me.
What I am saying though is that it still put down the numbers that it did (I still think the 'ring car was a ringer), and everyone that reviewed and everyone I know who drove it all walked away genuinely impressed, so there must be something to it. The style changing alone for me made that much of a difference, because it went from hard no while laughing to ok in the right planet alignment I can see a situation where I'd consider one. So I'm just taking the rare opportunity for me to give Honda some flowers because it's usually just me lambasting their products.
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