When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Anything about bare sustenance is a "waste" of money.
There's a hierarchy of needs... Maslow is a good resource for determining what you "need". Sports/enthusiast cars would probably fall in the "esteem" level of needs, where as a prius would fall into the "Safety needs" classification.
The perception of not being able to get something creates frantic energy. The toilet paper situation during the onset of the pandemic was a prime example of this. There was no shortage if everyone kept using at their normal rate, but the perception that it may run out caused a run, and then the selfish, hoarding attitude by enough people was enough to create a shortage.
And people are competitive by nature, it's just that not many get the opportunity to truly compete, so when there is an opportunity to get a win and therefore relish in victory, they take it. Whether that means hoarding toilet paper, or being one of the first to buy a car in demand and post it all over social media. It's one reason why you end up seeing so many of these enthusiast cars with three owners and 30k miles. Gambling is recession proof, just like cigarettes and caffeine.
De Beers really capitalized on this human behavior, monopolized a market for a stone that has no inherit value, not rare, and can be recreated to a better quality, but get some influencers (they always existed, they used to be called trend setters) to say look what I got and yeah people spend a ton of money on worthless rocks. Yeah, the same people who love to post about social injustices well then post they're engaged with a blood diamond on their finger.
Anyway, blame it on the pandemic or whatever, but the major contributor is the lack of supply, and moreover the perception of lack of supply. Many markets that experienced similar crazy inflated pricing have cooled down (like the watch market) as supply has largely been corrected. Cars still face supply challenges, and are necessity for many, but even then the prices are coming back down. I'd hate to be the guy who bought a clapped out 240sx, NA Miata, etc etc for over 20k.
The last CTR had a very metered production, and the demand seemed to have grown during its lifecycle. There were articles that revealed how many of the rich enthusiasts (measured by how many 100k+ cars they also had in their garage) were buying them for DDs, which created a trend. So the car that was too ugly suddenly became in demand because those influencers said they were cool. Also, people great acclimated to the looks as cars around it became "uglier" (looking at you BMW).
I try not to be too judgmental of it all, end of the day all enthusiasts are sorta doing the same thing. To a super practical, financially responsible person, buying anything other than the most efficient vehicle for the size you need (Corolla, Camry, Rav4, Highlander, Sienna for instance) is like how we view markups, it's an unnecessary cost that only people who value frivolous things buy. Unless you're professionally competing with these cars, there's no reason to own one. Fun is subjective, and usually rooted in some sort of indoctrination based on some sort of competition. These are all learned behaviors, look at the debate between ICE/EV, it's almost always a battle of generations.
If the beef is that it's called ADM, then why don't we just call it dynamic pricing, like supermarkets/gas stations? Chevron sells gas, yet each station pricing varies, alot of times dramatically. What's the difference? If gas stations were running out of gas, or were operating in high rent areas, etc etc, don't you think they would charge more? If demand outstrips supply, prices go up. In the situations where certain dealers or whatever charge OEM, it's because its in their best business practice. Rarely are these dealers in the high impact areas, so they're trying to sell as much of their incoming supply to take advantage as these dealers tend to struggle during normal times. They're not doing some sort of public service.
My frustration is that alot of these heightened demand is because of all the casual fans jumping in to get a hit of people's social media admiration. Watches, cars, just a bunch of dudes who recognize hey I can buy this thing that I can show off and it won't cost me anything because surely this will last forever!
I don't pay ADM not to virtual signal about my intelligence, I don't pay it because in the situations I'm in I know I can avoid it with diligence. But if it's unavoidable, like if I wanted a GT3RS or whatever limited edition Porsche, I know I'll have to pay for it in some way whether it's ADM or having to have an account with the dealer. Ferraris are sold at MSRP, try going in and buy a Monza or Daytona.
Good points, Don. I will say I've tried to think more objectively (and not subjectively or emotionally) on my recent purchases in light of this real and/or partially manufactured supply "crisis" especially with in-demand vehicles.
Would I have bought my Blackwing if I knew it would lose 40% of it's value? Maybe, just because it's the last supercharged V8 six-speed manual Cadillac is going to make and I love cars like that. I still love it a year+ into ownership.
What about my BRZ? If my $32k purchase became $20k in a year or two, I probably wouldn't have bought it. Not that I can't absorb a $12k hit, but it just not a totally necessary car for me to own.
Escalade V? Hell no, I wouldn't have bought it if was going to lose 20-30% in the first year. That was an opportunity get a "limited edition" supercharged Escalade that I likely will sell in the next year or two and maybe make a few bucks or at least not lose any money. I do have 1,100 miles on it and it's been a fun a** SUV to rip around town in, the exhaust note is truly insane.
Ford Lightning Lariat (should have this in a few weeks as it's been built...not sure if it's missing parts or whatever)....not sure I would buy this either if it didn't have strong resale value currently. I'm going to try it out for a little bit and see how I like it, but I know it's resale value will take a hit as more get on the road, production ramps up, and better competitors come to market.
It's been easier to play the car game when depreciation has been minimal or even negative and some flipper non-enthusiast a-holes have jumped into the fray to take advantage of the situation. But, it's their choice and we do live in a capitalistic society.
I do believe interest rates, inflation, and stock market volatility is going to take care of some of these opportunistic buyers over time (myself included). I feel I'm a little bit different than just a flipper as I'm a true car nut and love cars even the ones I don't want to keep long-term. Having less depreciation to deal with has just given me more temporary opportunity to get a few more cool cars for the time being.
Anything about bare sustenance is a "waste" of money.
Precisely, so really we are all guilty of it to some degree.
Additionally, it's kinda like the guy who wears Save the Manuals shirt, but has not bought a new car in his entire life, because he's too smart to eat new car depreciation let alone pay ADM, but he's doing nothing to save the manuals, and is actually making the very situation he's critical worse.
It's not lost on me the things that causes us informed folks concern, all the socialites just wanting the newest peacock feather to galivant and such, but there are just a large group of people just living their life and making decisions that make sense for their personal situation.
Like the GR86, those who got them for MSRP spent a tremendous amount of time calling literally every single dealer, oftentimes several times a week, for months to find one. Is it then reasonable to expect everyone to do that. Who the F knows, everyone values their time and money differently.
Looking inwardly, I realized that if I just made better decisions and had more discretionary income I would care far less on how others spent their money. The market is what the market is, it's democratic (more or less), we all vote with our dollars. It just sucks in that what used to be an affordable way to satiate my wants is now becoming increasingly expensive. As the old saying goes, if you want it, odds are others may want it as well and may also be a factor in why you want it as well. I largely won't pay ADM only because I know I could avoid it. If I determine it's unavoidable, or the ADM costs offsets something else (time, having to build rapport with dealers like Porsche and Ferrari do, travel, etc), and if the total cost with ADM is worth it to me, then I'd do it.
So if a friend were to come to me and say hey I can get a CTR with a... 5k? 10k? markup, locally, is that a good deal, after I take a deep sigh I'd say it's not a ripoff. But at that price I'd rather buy something else, although those options are getting slimmer.
Which brings me to the final point, these discussions then get to a point where it resembles more investment talk than car hobby talk, and that's the very problem. If this is just about passions, then pay whatever you feel comfortable, but if it's about protecting money, then this is no longer about hobbies. Not saying they should be mutually exclusive, but they should be mutually recognized.
Good points, Don. I will say I've tried to think more objectively (and not subjectively or emotionally) on my recent purchases in light of this real and/or partially manufactured supply "crisis" especially with in-demand vehicles.
Would I have bought my Blackwing if I knew it would lose 40% of it's value? Maybe, just because it's the last supercharged V8 six-speed manual Cadillac is going to make and I love cars like that. I still love it a year+ into ownership.
What about my BRZ? If my $32k purchase became $20k in a year or two, I probably wouldn't have bought it. Not that I can't absorb a $12k hit, but it just not a totally necessary car for me to own.
Escalade V? Hell no, I wouldn't have bought it if was going to lose 20-30% in the first year. That was an opportunity get a "limited edition" supercharged Escalade that I likely will sell in the next year or two and maybe make a few bucks or at least not lose any money. I do have 1,100 miles on it and it's been a fun a** SUV to rip around town in, the exhaust note is truly insane.
Ford Lightning Lariat (should have this in a few weeks as it's been built...not sure if it's missing parts or whatever)....not sure I would buy this either if it didn't have strong resale value currently. I'm going to try it out for a little bit and see how I like it, but I know it's resale value will take a hit as more get on the road, production ramps up, and better competitors come to market.
It's been easier to play the car game when depreciation has been minimal or even negative and some flipper non-enthusiast a-holes have jumped into the fray to take advantage of the situation. But, it's their choice and we do live in a capitalistic society.
I do believe interest rates, inflation, and stock market volatility is going to take care of some of these opportunistic buyers over time (myself included). I feel I'm a little bit different than just a flipper as I'm a true car nut and love cars even the ones I don't want to keep long-term. Having less depreciation to deal with has just given me more temporary opportunity to get a few more cool cars for the time being.
I've gone through cars these past few years like socks, actually no, I bought more cars than socks actually, lol. So I'm definitely not casting judgment.
But here's an interesting paradigm to think in light of the points you raised. In an effort to show that I'm not a bandwagon enthusiast who's being opportunistic of this market, and therefore contributing to this madness, I then go and buy something I know will depreciate over the course of ____ years. By doing so, I forego my usual route of, call it what it is, flipping cars. What have I really accomplished here?
That's the thing about principle, while many are universal like don't cross Chuck Norris, many are self inflicted, like not paying ADM, buy to own, etc etc, as if there's some sort of right or wrong way to behave as a car enthusiast.
Friends used to look at me cross eyed when I tell them they were more financially irresponsible by buying a Honda/Toyota/etc CUV vs all the sports cars I've owned, because I didn't lose any money. I got to essentially rent cars for free while they ate depreciation (and my insurance is good).
So in the pursuit of trying to appease some standard of enthusiast-ism, I've just costed myself money. Would I not have been better off being a evil flipper?
This is different from home flippers since communities get disrupted and destabilized, creating displacement and gentrification, etc etc, but we're just talking about enthusiast cars here, a very first world discussion.
I wouldn't call it being "enlightened" or becoming more objective, or anything positive sounding like that, but I've definitely changed my outlook on cars. What I should do is just buy S2000s, since they will not depreciate, and I can enjoy them, they're cool, etc etc. And you can apply this to alot of other cars as well, but at the end of the day it just doesn't fit what I need for that spot in my garage. Me not getting the 86 (for now) was probably the best thing for me, because I wound up looking outside my comfort zone, finally made a decision with my brain instead of my smaller one, and wound up with a car leaving everyone I know scratching their head. My only gripe is that it's going to cost me.
Like I bought my 22 WRX, but what I "should've" bought was an older STI, something I know I can recoup my cost on. But I'd sacrifice all the refinement, have to deal with owning a specialty car, etc. End of the day, on the universal checklist, the older STI checks more boxes and is therefore the prudent choice, but if I simply took away the investment and flex aspect, I'm happier with the WRX.
Point is, I'm understanding all of this better with experience and maturity, and the more I understand the more I realize there is absolutely no right answer, hence judgement should not be cast. And this lesson seems to keep recurring throughout life. Because my ambition/hope is to add a running mate to my WRX, hopefully another ND2 RF (loved that thing, but not as a DD, lol), or a GR86 once they figure out all this RTV thing, and for that purchase I absolutely will be putting on my flipper hat and will be buying used.
But I'm saying that anything that brings joy to someone, specifically things in line with ones hobbies and passions, is not being wasteful. There's inherent value there. The jackasses that bought DCT equipped M3 hardtop convertibles just because they're the most expensive 3 Series available...wasteful. Or badge whoring. Take your pick, I suppose they're the same at some point.
Which brings me to the final point, these discussions then get to a point where it resembles more investment talk than car hobby talk, and that's the very problem. If this is just about passions, then pay whatever you feel comfortable, but if it's about protecting money, then this is no longer about hobbies. Not saying they should be mutually exclusive, but they should be mutually recognized.
The more money you make, the more cool cars you could potentially purchase. On the flip side of the same coin, if you don't lose your a** on a bunch of heavily depreciating cars, then you'll be able to buy better and cooler cars in the future.
I've generally never taken a huge bath on most of my car purchases which has allowed me to retain more $$ to use on future car purchases. So, I think closing your eyes and just buying whatever you cool car you want can cost you dearly down the road.
For example, a McLaren, a V12 Mercedes, a big BMW, etc. Those cars have historically been blood baths for depreciation. If I made a few buys like that many years ago, I definitely would be a much worse financial position at this point.
So, agree with your statement for sure, but when figuring out what awesome car you want to buy, you need to definitely consider 'total cost of ownership' over your expected ownership horizon to see if it's "worth it" before pulling the trigger. Ignore purchase price if you can too (and can afford to get the car in the first place) as it's likely a more expensive and desirable car will actually be cheaper to own in total.
I can't believe I could buy a $120k 2010 ZR1 for $100k, own it for 11+ years and have it be worth $50k still (lose $50k in depreciation) or buy a $162k 991.2 GT3 drive it 3.5 years, put 13,500 hard a** miles on it, trash the tires, brakes, and chip the rear spoiler backing it into my garage door (total dumba** move) and sell it back to the dealer for $5k less than I paid. GT3 was WAY CHEAPER to own than a freaking Vette. Who would think that?
Another decent example is the Raptor. $72k sticker, bought it for $68k brand new back in 2019. It's still worth $55-60k with 50k miles on it. If I had bought a $55k-60k SLT GMC Sierra normal truck, it's worth maybe $35k now with 50k miles on it. So, I actually lost less money driving a sweet Raptor than a normal pick-up. But, all many of my normal (non-car) friends see is me driving a shiny, awesome blue Raptor and think I'm "nuts" for spending so much money on a truck.
Anyway, I'm an accountant and pretty cheap overall, so I will always look at estimated total cost of ownership before buying something.
I would love to drive the new CTR on a track. I will still stick with my initial opinion that it will embarrass a lot of other vehicles when it comes to track times, and I'm looking forward to some track testing stats once the test driving embargo ends. The last gen easily beat the 370Z and the STi on the track despite their superior driven wheels. I'm willing to forget what wheels are driving the car if it drives well and performs well.
But I'm saying that anything that brings joy to someone, specifically things in line with ones hobbies and passions, is not being wasteful. There's inherent value there. The jackasses that bought DCT equipped M3 hardtop convertibles just because they're the most expensive 3 Series available...wasteful. Or badge whoring. Take your pick, I suppose they're the same at some point.
For sure, no disagreement.
Originally Posted by QUIKAG
The more money you make, the more cool cars you could potentially purchase. On the flip side of the same coin, if you don't lose your a** on a bunch of heavily depreciating cars, then you'll be able to buy better and cooler cars in the future.
I've generally never taken a huge bath on most of my car purchases which has allowed me to retain more $$ to use on future car purchases. So, I think closing your eyes and just buying whatever you cool car you want can cost you dearly down the road.
For example, a McLaren, a V12 Mercedes, a big BMW, etc. Those cars have historically been blood baths for depreciation. If I made a few buys like that many years ago, I definitely would be a much worse financial position at this point.
So, agree with your statement for sure, but when figuring out what awesome car you want to buy, you need to definitely consider 'total cost of ownership' over your expected ownership horizon to see if it's "worth it" before pulling the trigger. Ignore purchase price if you can too (and can afford to get the car in the first place) as it's likely a more expensive and desirable car will actually be cheaper to own in total.
I can't believe I could buy a $120k 2010 ZR1 for $100k, own it for 11+ years and have it be worth $50k still (lose $50k in depreciation) or buy a $162k 991.2 GT3 drive it 3.5 years, put 13,500 hard a** miles on it, trash the tires, brakes, and chip the rear spoiler backing it into my garage door (total dumba** move) and sell it back to the dealer for $5k less than I paid. GT3 was WAY CHEAPER to own than a freaking Vette. Who would think that?
Another decent example is the Raptor. $72k sticker, bought it for $68k brand new back in 2019. It's still worth $55-60k with 50k miles on it. If I had bought a $55k-60k SLT GMC Sierra normal truck, it's worth maybe $35k now with 50k miles on it. So, I actually lost less money driving a sweet Raptor than a normal pick-up. But, all many of my normal (non-car) friends see is me driving a shiny, awesome blue Raptor and think I'm "nuts" for spending so much money on a truck.
Anyway, I'm an accountant and pretty cheap overall, so I will always look at estimated total cost of ownership before buying something.
Definitely, total cost has to be factored in for sure. And that's the rub on ADM, because if you pay for ADM, but the car actually appreciates or the total cost of ownership is within reason... well the only thing to argue with is some sort of falsely based principles.
11-08-2022, 04:25 AM
