Miata vs Lotus
08-12-2009, 07:49 PM
#51
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Originally Posted by PedalFaster,Aug 11 2009, 10:00 PM
Armchair quarterbacks who are assigning blame without ever having done sanctioned wheel-to-wheel racing should stop spouting about things they know nothing about. Yes, technically the Miata driver is as fault since there was a waving yellow being displayed at the time of the accident, but if you look carefully at the video, you'll see that his line of sight to the Lotus is blocked pretty much until the moment he pulls out, at which point it's too late. Everyone on the racing forums (i.e. everyone who's actually raced and knows what situational awareness is like) has chalked this up as a racing incident, not something that's clearly anyone's fault.
As for slowing down around an accident -- yellow flag or not, everyone else will have their foot in it, so slowing down even momentarily would pretty much end your race. Keep in mind also that this was a National race (i.e. an important race).
As for slowing down around an accident -- yellow flag or not, everyone else will have their foot in it, so slowing down even momentarily would pretty much end your race. Keep in mind also that this was a National race (i.e. an important race).
glad someone said it
that wreck was crazy, best wishes for the drivers and families
08-13-2009, 05:07 AM
#52
Originally Posted by moogleii,Aug 12 2009, 07:35 PM
Glued? I'm sure it's some kind of crazy super glue, but still..why not just weld?
08-13-2009, 05:52 AM
#53
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To add to the glue comment,
The glue joints are stronger because you have a large area of overlap. A weld is strong but the total weld area is smaller because you are looking at a line versus a large area.
Another issue with welding is you heat up the material. This can anneal the aluminum alloy and make it locally weak right around the weld. This isn't an issue with a surface bond.
The gluing methods are generally very effective and have been used in aircraft for years. They were also common in the days of aluminum monocoque race cars. Of course they are still common with the carbon tubs but the gluing methods are different.
The glue joints are stronger because you have a large area of overlap. A weld is strong but the total weld area is smaller because you are looking at a line versus a large area.
Another issue with welding is you heat up the material. This can anneal the aluminum alloy and make it locally weak right around the weld. This isn't an issue with a surface bond.
The gluing methods are generally very effective and have been used in aircraft for years. They were also common in the days of aluminum monocoque race cars. Of course they are still common with the carbon tubs but the gluing methods are different.
08-13-2009, 12:23 PM
#54
Originally Posted by vader1,Aug 12 2009, 03:17 PM
Absolutely agree but we are talking about a head on collision where some speed was involved.
I do not think the Lotus is the safest car out there, far from it, but I think it gets a bad rap. It is light, but so is a Miata and few seem to have as much outright fear driving a Lotus on the street but not a Miata, or Scion, or Civic, or Cobalt.
Lotus is known for handling but also, they know how to build a crash structure. Yeah some of the crash pictures are BRUTAL, but the question is, how did the occupants hold up. If the car is destroyed but the occupant were ok, then judging the pics of the after crash is kind of unfair. A car can be replaced, people can not. And incidents of a person going 100+ and hitting a tree are unfair.
I am not going to argue that an Elise is the safest car in the world. But I think one has to take in to account the nature of an accident and the drivers injuries before saying that the car is better or worse than something like a Miata or a Scion or any other lightweight car.
I saw an article in a local paper about a guy who had a racing history and said he could construct a lightweight safe car that would protect the driver very well in just about every crash. I dont know his pedigree but there are lightweight race cars that protect people from hitting the wall at speed over 150 mph. What I am trying to say is lets not give a lightweight car a bad name that may very well hold up pretty good vs. some common passenger cars (civics, miata, scion, cobalt,whatever) in a freak track accident when it may very well have a structure that protects the occupant better than a car you can go buy at the local Kia dealer.
If the Lotus protect an occupant better than a Corolla in a head on collision, then should we be questioning the Corolla (which seels in high numbers and is regarded as a top notch small car) more than we question a Lotus?
If I had a Lotus and got into an accident where the car looked like a rotten mess but I was fine, I dont think I would be putting Lotus down, rather praising them for protecting my person. The car can look like crap afterwards, that is not the issue, its whether or not the people inside have major injuries or can not have an open casket funeral. you can show me a picture of a totally messed up Elise (as you could with ANY car) but if the passengers were fine after the accident, I don't know what the issue is. It protects FAR better than a motorcycle, and people ride those everyday without complaint, and drive defensively. We are talking about a race track accident.
I do not think the Lotus is the safest car out there, far from it, but I think it gets a bad rap. It is light, but so is a Miata and few seem to have as much outright fear driving a Lotus on the street but not a Miata, or Scion, or Civic, or Cobalt.
Lotus is known for handling but also, they know how to build a crash structure. Yeah some of the crash pictures are BRUTAL, but the question is, how did the occupants hold up. If the car is destroyed but the occupant were ok, then judging the pics of the after crash is kind of unfair. A car can be replaced, people can not. And incidents of a person going 100+ and hitting a tree are unfair.
I am not going to argue that an Elise is the safest car in the world. But I think one has to take in to account the nature of an accident and the drivers injuries before saying that the car is better or worse than something like a Miata or a Scion or any other lightweight car.
I saw an article in a local paper about a guy who had a racing history and said he could construct a lightweight safe car that would protect the driver very well in just about every crash. I dont know his pedigree but there are lightweight race cars that protect people from hitting the wall at speed over 150 mph. What I am trying to say is lets not give a lightweight car a bad name that may very well hold up pretty good vs. some common passenger cars (civics, miata, scion, cobalt,whatever) in a freak track accident when it may very well have a structure that protects the occupant better than a car you can go buy at the local Kia dealer.
If the Lotus protect an occupant better than a Corolla in a head on collision, then should we be questioning the Corolla (which seels in high numbers and is regarded as a top notch small car) more than we question a Lotus?
If I had a Lotus and got into an accident where the car looked like a rotten mess but I was fine, I dont think I would be putting Lotus down, rather praising them for protecting my person. The car can look like crap afterwards, that is not the issue, its whether or not the people inside have major injuries or can not have an open casket funeral. you can show me a picture of a totally messed up Elise (as you could with ANY car) but if the passengers were fine after the accident, I don't know what the issue is. It protects FAR better than a motorcycle, and people ride those everyday without complaint, and drive defensively. We are talking about a race track accident.
Personally, I think that the relative safety of car should only be determined when you consider all of the pluses and minuses AND consider the likelihood that such an event would ever happen.
For example, there are tons of NA Miatas driving around and they are, quite frankly, death traps (I say this as the proud owner of an NA Miata) to some degree or another, particularly in the event of a roll over. The A pillars are incredibly weak and will collapse under the weight of the car with the greatest of ease.
However, you chances of rolling a Miata (or most cars for that matter) is very slim. I couldn't take someone seriously if they said that they would never buy a Miata for that reason alone, but I can certainly understand the concern. In fact, I bought a rollbar a few days after I saw some aftermath pics of a rolled Miata.
as far as pluses go, the Lotus is incredibly maneuverable which I feel most people underestimate as in important safety feature. If you can get the hell out of the way it doesn't matter what kind of occupant protection your car has.
I have been in scenarios where my Miata got me out of trouble that my Civic would not be capable of getting me out of. Conversely, if the fit hits the shan I would rather be in my Civic any day of the week.
You see what I mean? Essentially, I think it is stupid to condemn a car wholesale because it would not do well in one type of crash.
However... I feel that the Lotus would do poorly in a variety of crashes. The biggest problem with your analogy to Civics, Miatas, and Scions is that those cars are steel unibody cars, not to mention, they are all considerably more massive than the Lotus. I'm no materials expert, but to make a general statement, steel bends and aluminum breaks. That is a problem. Civics and the like have complex crash structures and integrated A pillars, B pillars, etc. while the Elise simply has front and rear bumpers. That is a problem.
But the most significant problem, in my mind, is that the Elise's chassis sits so low. Everything above the tub is plastic and fiberglass with the exception of maybe the bolt in A pillar. It seems that the likelihood of some non-metal part of your car getting struck by a 4,000 lb something or other is pretty strong.
Also, what you mentioned about race cars crashing into walls is not comparable to an Elise getting hit by a suburban.
08-17-2009, 08:05 PM
#55
Any updates on this? Are there better threads or forums about this incident? I remember when the Elise first came out in the States and saw some not so bad looking accidents, but the people driving got pretty messed up with their spines and brains.
08-17-2009, 08:23 PM
#56
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My buddy didn't hold up well in his lotus after getting rear-ended at about 15 mph. Went to hospital, needed stitches, car totaled. If that's not bad..i don't know what is. He hit a car in front of him, but come on....it was probably actually less then 15 mph as he was in stop and go traffic.
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