Leaving Honda behind
06-13-2007, 06:48 AM
#31
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Arlington Heights, IL
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 0
Received 19 Likes
on
11 Posts
Originally Posted by Slamnasty,Jun 13 2007, 09:44 AM
OK now you're wandering off into La-La land. Bread-and-butter Civics and Accords do not have soul. They are well-made machines that IMO are more attractive as purchases than Toyotas, but they do not have soul.
Go read any "4-door midsize sedan" comparo in the past two decades, and they always mention the Accord is the most fun to drive of the "mainstream" cars. It isn't a Mazda 6, and it isn't a Passat, but of the Camry/Taurus/Malibu/Stratus etc mainstream players, the Accord is always the closest to a "sports sedan."
06-13-2007, 07:10 AM
#32
Registered User
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Slamnasty,Jun 13 2007, 06:44 AM
OK now you're wandering off into La-La land. Bread-and-butter Civics and Accords do not have soul. They are well-made machines that IMO are more attractive as purchases than Toyotas, but they do not have soul.
As for Honda's soul it does exist. It's a trait that consistently is applied to their cars.
It can be seen with technology and continues with High Quality parts.
It still continues with their applied racing research. (however note that this is my point of the post in that Honda is slowing down in on this aspect).
One Example, Vtec. It allowed a mildly mannered car have an aggresive cam.
Another example, the wonderful manual transmissions they're known for. Time and time again praised as the best transmissions offered of ANY; i say that again *ANY*. car.
Further examples the NSX and the S2000.
More examples, the sound the new Si produces. Specificaly tuned for aural pleasure. It was an actual characteristic they wanted.
Look at the 6 speed Accords that Honda finally gave in on producing, or that the RL has SHAWD.
How do you define Soul then?
06-13-2007, 08:24 AM
#33
Originally Posted by GT_2003,Jun 12 2007, 10:15 PM
What "sporty image" does Honda have to lose? Despite what some fanbois might believe, few people in the general population would consider a manual tranny in an econobox a "sports car." Most people think a sports car is first and foremost, not an economy car, and second and third, is RWD and looks sexy. Honda really has nothing to lose at this point. They make exactly one car that might impress anyone with sporting ability, and that's pretty much it. If they've ever heard of an NSX, they've long since forgotten it ever existed. You can't really blame them.
Heck, 70% of the population probably consider the SC430 a sportscar. People keep trying to define what's in Honda's best interest, but they're really only reflecting what they wish that interest was, from their own desires. I think Honda is a pretty smart company and will do what makes sense for itself, no matter what we wish they'd do. Still, that said, I love these discussions!
06-13-2007, 09:12 AM
#34
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Easton
Posts: 5,642
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[QUOTE=Chris Stack,Jun 13 2007, 09:48 AM] I think the point is that they have more soul than their immediate competitors.
Go read any "4-door midsize sedan" comparo in the past two decades, and they always mention the Accord is the most fun to drive of the "mainstream" cars.
Go read any "4-door midsize sedan" comparo in the past two decades, and they always mention the Accord is the most fun to drive of the "mainstream" cars.
06-13-2007, 09:36 AM
#35
Originally Posted by Slamnasty,Jun 12 2007, 10:06 PM
a 1.0 liter 3-cylinder marvel pushing 20,000 RPMs and making 1500hp in a chassis weighing 1000lbs with AWD and an 8-speed manual full titanium and CF body with ceramic brakes turning 2.0gs on the skidpad.
06-13-2007, 09:55 AM
#36
Point taken about Honda making more fun cars, but that doesn't mean it's more sporty. If a car runs near 16 second quartermiles but is fun, does that make it a sportscar? Sure it;s a fun car, but not a sports car. The Mini is praised for its fun, tossable character, so is the Mini a sports car?
Yeah, I agree that the Accord driving characteristic is definitely more appealing to me than say a Camry, but there is a reason why the Camry still outsells it- the Accord compromises to accomodate the more fun drive by firming up the suspension. Drive an Accord and you;ll find it rides rougher than a Camry or Impala, and to the true blue enthusiasts of the automotive press, that compromise is more than worth it. However, to the common folk, the compromise isn't worth it, and to me, it's not. Honestly though, I thought the older, uglier Altima had a more sporting character than the Accord.
I mean sure, Honda made the GSR, the prelude, the different SIs, but Nissan during those times made the SE-R, 240sx, G20, Maxima, and the 300zx (all of which have been criticially acclaimed) while Toyota made the ae85 corollas, MR2s, all trac celica, and Supra. Let's not forget about Mazda's RX7 and miata. Then there were the DSMs and 3SIs. Honda didn't even have a vehicle to compete in the Japanese 300hp war (Z, Supra, RX7, 3SI).
Don't get me wrong, you get a honda and it does get under your skin, but the glitz of a sportscar image... probably not. And you know what, that;s what I like about it, that it doesn't have that sportscar image but it satisfies me in a way sports car would without the headaches. When I had my Si I loved it for what it was, a fun econo car.
Yeah, I agree that the Accord driving characteristic is definitely more appealing to me than say a Camry, but there is a reason why the Camry still outsells it- the Accord compromises to accomodate the more fun drive by firming up the suspension. Drive an Accord and you;ll find it rides rougher than a Camry or Impala, and to the true blue enthusiasts of the automotive press, that compromise is more than worth it. However, to the common folk, the compromise isn't worth it, and to me, it's not. Honestly though, I thought the older, uglier Altima had a more sporting character than the Accord.
I mean sure, Honda made the GSR, the prelude, the different SIs, but Nissan during those times made the SE-R, 240sx, G20, Maxima, and the 300zx (all of which have been criticially acclaimed) while Toyota made the ae85 corollas, MR2s, all trac celica, and Supra. Let's not forget about Mazda's RX7 and miata. Then there were the DSMs and 3SIs. Honda didn't even have a vehicle to compete in the Japanese 300hp war (Z, Supra, RX7, 3SI).
Don't get me wrong, you get a honda and it does get under your skin, but the glitz of a sportscar image... probably not. And you know what, that;s what I like about it, that it doesn't have that sportscar image but it satisfies me in a way sports car would without the headaches. When I had my Si I loved it for what it was, a fun econo car.
06-13-2007, 12:11 PM
#38
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Fruit Cove, FL
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Slamnasty,Jun 13 2007, 06:44 AM
...Bread-and-butter Civics and Accords do not have soul. They are well-made machines that IMO are more attractive as purchases than Toyotas, but they do not have soul.
06-13-2007, 12:21 PM
#39
Registered User
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Slamnasty,Jun 13 2007, 10:42 AM
I'm not saying it doesn't, I'm just saying it's relegated to specific cars in their lineup, not the entire range. A Civic Si has an amount of soul to it; A Civic EX does not however.
The same can be said of Toyota with regard to these two things, and Toyota is pretty universally chided here for not having soulful cars.
This is generally true of specific manufacturers like Honda, Ferrari, BMW, Audi and a few others. It is however mostly untrue in the auto industry in general. Toyota, GM, Ford, Merc, Bentley, etc.; they all race in many different series, yet they all spring to mind for different reasons.
My impression of VTEC is that it was not to make the car racy so much as make the most of cam timing to improve efficiency. It is a race-derived technology, but it's used in more non-race applications by them than competitive ones. Also, "aggressive" is relative to A) the Honda car it is in, and B) the net power gained should the average driver get into the VTEC range, which few daily drivers do.
Right. These are their "soulful" cars. Accords are not however.
The Si is hardly the first car or the cheapest to have such a thing done to it.
If Honda has so much soul, why did they have to, as you put it, give in on a 6-speed manual? Nissan had them in the Maxima back in 2002, and has up until this most recent Maxima always offered a manual tranny. The same cannot be said of Toyota or Honda for its top-end family car with the biggest engine. As for SHAWD, it's a first for them, but not the world. SHAWD hasn't won Le Mans years in a row like Quattro has, or dominated Euro touring series. It might soon, but that is not a given.
I define it more as "character" than as "soul", because all kinds of cars have character, whether they are sporty or not. My GTI has more "soul" than just about any Civic I've ever driven save maybe the EP. My old Maximas had more "soul" than any Accord or Camry I've ever driven, manual or otherwise. A 350Z seems to have plenty of soul too, since people buy them all the time. Does a Mini not have soul? And the Accord IMO is not nearly as "sporty" as the Maxima, or the recent Altimas, both of which sell at a higher ratio of manuals to autos than the Accord. Nissan was the one driving the Japanese family sedan HP wars (Pontiac started it in 97 with the GTP), not Honda or Toyota.
This is something that is entirely subjective though, so Nissan guys think Nissans have soul, and Honda guiys will choose their cars first, etc.
The same can be said of Toyota with regard to these two things, and Toyota is pretty universally chided here for not having soulful cars.
This is generally true of specific manufacturers like Honda, Ferrari, BMW, Audi and a few others. It is however mostly untrue in the auto industry in general. Toyota, GM, Ford, Merc, Bentley, etc.; they all race in many different series, yet they all spring to mind for different reasons.
My impression of VTEC is that it was not to make the car racy so much as make the most of cam timing to improve efficiency. It is a race-derived technology, but it's used in more non-race applications by them than competitive ones. Also, "aggressive" is relative to A) the Honda car it is in, and B) the net power gained should the average driver get into the VTEC range, which few daily drivers do.
Right. These are their "soulful" cars. Accords are not however.
The Si is hardly the first car or the cheapest to have such a thing done to it.
If Honda has so much soul, why did they have to, as you put it, give in on a 6-speed manual? Nissan had them in the Maxima back in 2002, and has up until this most recent Maxima always offered a manual tranny. The same cannot be said of Toyota or Honda for its top-end family car with the biggest engine. As for SHAWD, it's a first for them, but not the world. SHAWD hasn't won Le Mans years in a row like Quattro has, or dominated Euro touring series. It might soon, but that is not a given.
I define it more as "character" than as "soul", because all kinds of cars have character, whether they are sporty or not. My GTI has more "soul" than just about any Civic I've ever driven save maybe the EP. My old Maximas had more "soul" than any Accord or Camry I've ever driven, manual or otherwise. A 350Z seems to have plenty of soul too, since people buy them all the time. Does a Mini not have soul? And the Accord IMO is not nearly as "sporty" as the Maxima, or the recent Altimas, both of which sell at a higher ratio of manuals to autos than the Accord. Nissan was the one driving the Japanese family sedan HP wars (Pontiac started it in 97 with the GTP), not Honda or Toyota.
This is something that is entirely subjective though, so Nissan guys think Nissans have soul, and Honda guiys will choose their cars first, etc.
Perhaps in the end, it comes down to brand loyalty and what characteristics (of that brand) (of the car which the buyer decided on) bleeds off to one's own character; or what characteristics he/she beleives they will inherit!
whoa
