Honda's VP: "Our engineers are really struggling".
#31
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Honda started their hybrid development with the first iteration of IMA for the Insight I. It was the first hybrid to hit the market in 1999.
The Honda Accord Hybrid came out in late 2004. It used the IMA + VCM coupled to a V6. So I think you are confused regarding the history...
But look at the analysis I did on page 1 of this thread. The real world fuel economy between IMA and HSD is very similar. Honda achieves their end results with lower complexity and cost.
Honda should have made the roofline higher for the Insight II. For the buyers who don't have rear seat passengers it isn't an issue.
The Honda Accord Hybrid came out in late 2004. It used the IMA + VCM coupled to a V6. So I think you are confused regarding the history...
But look at the analysis I did on page 1 of this thread. The real world fuel economy between IMA and HSD is very similar. Honda achieves their end results with lower complexity and cost.
Honda should have made the roofline higher for the Insight II. For the buyers who don't have rear seat passengers it isn't an issue.
#32
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Originally Posted by corey415,Feb 2 2010, 09:53 AM
Statistical analysis of 2010 Insight and 2010 Prius indicates real world performance is much closer than you may think.
Using fuelly.com these were the numbers I got (both cars have around 70 samples each):
2010 Insight:
Average: 45 mpg
Median: 45 mpg
Std Deviation: 3.76 mpg
2010 Prius:
Average: 46.7 mpg
Median: 45 mpg
Std Deviation: 4.4 mpg
I threw out the the high and low outriggers for each sample set.
The Prius system cost more to manufacture and I presume is costlier to repair (not sure if this matters since both hybrid systems seem robust).
Using fuelly.com these were the numbers I got (both cars have around 70 samples each):
2010 Insight:
Average: 45 mpg
Median: 45 mpg
Std Deviation: 3.76 mpg
2010 Prius:
Average: 46.7 mpg
Median: 45 mpg
Std Deviation: 4.4 mpg
I threw out the the high and low outriggers for each sample set.
The Prius system cost more to manufacture and I presume is costlier to repair (not sure if this matters since both hybrid systems seem robust).
#33
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Originally Posted by corey415,Feb 2 2010, 09:53 AM
Statistical analysis of 2010 Insight and 2010 Prius indicates real world performance is much closer than you may think.
Using fuelly.com these were the numbers I got (both cars have around 70 samples each):
2010 Insight:
Average: 45 mpg
Median: 45 mpg
Std Deviation: 3.76 mpg
2010 Prius:
Average: 46.7 mpg
Median: 45 mpg
Std Deviation: 4.4 mpg
I threw out the the high and low outriggers for each sample set.
The Prius system cost more to manufacture and I presume is costlier to repair (not sure if this matters since both hybrid systems seem robust).
Using fuelly.com these were the numbers I got (both cars have around 70 samples each):
2010 Insight:
Average: 45 mpg
Median: 45 mpg
Std Deviation: 3.76 mpg
2010 Prius:
Average: 46.7 mpg
Median: 45 mpg
Std Deviation: 4.4 mpg
I threw out the the high and low outriggers for each sample set.
The Prius system cost more to manufacture and I presume is costlier to repair (not sure if this matters since both hybrid systems seem robust).
#35
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Yeah but the Insight II is cheaper. Honda could have made the car larger, added more battery capacity, at increased cost to the end user. I believe fuel efficiency in this case still would have been similar to the Prius III.
My point was that people are bashing Honda's hybrid approach without driving their cars or looking at the actual performance data. I feel that the Insight II isn't selling well for reasons other than its hybrid technology.
My point was that people are bashing Honda's hybrid approach without driving their cars or looking at the actual performance data. I feel that the Insight II isn't selling well for reasons other than its hybrid technology.
#36
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Originally Posted by corey415,Feb 2 2010, 10:45 AM
Well you are assuming that the battery would always need replacement at 100k miles. If you are driving that many miles in such a short duration I imagine it is mainly freeway which is much less strenuous on the battery. Keep in mind that the battery is warrantied to 150k miles in PZEV states (which may indicate true lifespan?).
Also, where did you get the battery replacement cost estimate for the Insight II?
Also, where did you get the battery replacement cost estimate for the Insight II?
Honda is charging $2k (battery/labor included) which is nowhere near as bad as the former $4k pricetag. Sure, I saved more money vs a regular Civic since I routinely get 55mpg (calculated; 53mpg per car's gauge) and amassed a lot of miles. But having to replace the battery sooner completely negates the money saved. I would've been better off buying a Civic Si, hypermile it, and not worry about major maintenance issues until 200k. I'll never buy a hybrid again. They're only useful for leasing IMO.
#37
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I have an 09 fit, and see no reason why I should have purchased an Insight instead. I like the material on the seats better, get great gas mileage, and a mini mini-van amount of cargo space. I have fun tossing it around corners, it's not a speed demon but it goes well enough to giggle when I take it to redline, and I think it looks cooler than the insight. The Fit really cannibalized the insight I think.
Also, the Prius' are cool looking cars. In this thread someone said the Prius 3.0 got hit with an ugly stick, but I think it looks rather futuristic and aggressive.
Also, the Prius' are cool looking cars. In this thread someone said the Prius 3.0 got hit with an ugly stick, but I think it looks rather futuristic and aggressive.
#38
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Originally Posted by corey415,Feb 2 2010, 07:46 PM
The Honda Accord Hybrid came out in late 2004. It used the IMA + VCM coupled to a V6. So I think you are confused regarding the history...
Honda should have made the roofline higher for the Insight II. For the buyers who don't have rear seat passengers it isn't an issue.
Honda should have made the roofline higher for the Insight II. For the buyers who don't have rear seat passengers it isn't an issue.
I do know in several tests (Motor Week, Car & Driver, R&T, etc) the differential was about 4 mpg+ between the 2 cars. And EPA ratings are larger than that.
As for the roofline & not being an issue unless you have rear seat passengers. Not sure why I would be driving this kind of 4 door car if I didn't have occasional 4 passengers.
I feel the Insight was a shot at the previous generation Prius & in many ways they made a better car, but in terms of rear seat leg room they missed, & also the technical gadgetry the Honda is a bit more spartan than the Prius.
Car & Driver Comparo
#39
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Originally Posted by Pointblank,Feb 4 2010, 12:05 AM
Also, the Prius' are cool looking cars. In this thread someone said the Prius 3.0 got hit with an ugly stick, but I think it looks rather futuristic and aggressive.
I can see how some people might not find them offensive but cool? Nope, not at all.
Yup, ugly stick.