Honda acknowledging problems
02-26-2016, 10:53 AM
#31
You said that Honda is not quick to be on the latest and greatest because they're essentially conservative and want to make sure everything is worked out before moving forward. Alot of people's opinions, which you disagree with, is that Honda just isn't that kind of company anymore that pushes the envelope, they can't go toe to toe with the best engines anymore, so they stick to what's working and juice that berry for as long as they can. You said, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the civic's engine isn't near for the model year, and we can argue over semantics, the k20c2 is new for the 2016 Honda civic which is why this issue is isolated to the new civics, so while they were being conservative they had a quality control oversight. According to you hey no big deal, all they gotta do is put in on a lift and inspect the issue, no big deal, shoot may even take just a few minutes. So what's the recall for, piston pin either missing or not installed properly. That's a big qc issue, how is it either missing or not installed correctly? Yes, engine issues happen all the time in the world of cars, and when it happens we point at it and criticise, but when it's a Honda, you play Honda damage control and try to spin it and in your mind you're winning the argument... but no one is convinced. Because why? We're not dumb to the fact, for instance in this recall, that when they find an issue the engine is coming apart on your brand new, supposedly bullet proof honda. Why else did you buy this car? It's not because it's more fun, efficient, powerful, better looking, better warranty, etc etc, no you bought it because it's a Honda, and Honda means it's going to run to 200k without gas or oil and lay golden eggs for you because that's what they always did.
But this is all besides the point, Honda doesn't produce innovative engines to the masses anymore, and the engines they do produce are subject to the same kind of issues found in their competition which is to say they're losing their specialness. They built up alot of goodwill and brand image so I'm sure things'll move forward without a hitch. Btw, nice to know you could using a car with an engine that can seize, and that if your car is one of the ones with an issue, they don't have the parts ready to install yet.
Let it go Jonboy, we're not honda bashing, most of us on these boards because we loved a Honda at some point, I've personally owned and loved 3, 2 I bought twice and 1 even Honda people hate (EP3). But you know all this because we've said all this to you. Why can't you accept that Honda is a flawed company. Hey start a thread about the best crossover SUV and you won't get any honda bashing becaues even I'd say the CRV is the way to go. Start one about minivans (actually I take that back, my recent findings on their panel fitment is astonishing), start one about midsize sedans, start one about 3 row suv that doesn't need to tow and their luxury sister version. Oh but we all turn into honda bashers when the topic turns to engine tech, enthusiast cars, halo cars, the CRZ lol. Oh right, this is an s2000 forum, which means the topics usually discussed here are about enthusiast type cars, who woulda thought.
But this is all besides the point, Honda doesn't produce innovative engines to the masses anymore, and the engines they do produce are subject to the same kind of issues found in their competition which is to say they're losing their specialness. They built up alot of goodwill and brand image so I'm sure things'll move forward without a hitch. Btw, nice to know you could using a car with an engine that can seize, and that if your car is one of the ones with an issue, they don't have the parts ready to install yet.
Let it go Jonboy, we're not honda bashing, most of us on these boards because we loved a Honda at some point, I've personally owned and loved 3, 2 I bought twice and 1 even Honda people hate (EP3). But you know all this because we've said all this to you. Why can't you accept that Honda is a flawed company. Hey start a thread about the best crossover SUV and you won't get any honda bashing becaues even I'd say the CRV is the way to go. Start one about minivans (actually I take that back, my recent findings on their panel fitment is astonishing), start one about midsize sedans, start one about 3 row suv that doesn't need to tow and their luxury sister version. Oh but we all turn into honda bashers when the topic turns to engine tech, enthusiast cars, halo cars, the CRZ lol. Oh right, this is an s2000 forum, which means the topics usually discussed here are about enthusiast type cars, who woulda thought.
02-29-2016, 06:03 AM
#32
When engines blow up or catch fire or fail because they were improperly designed, I have an issue because it should have been caught up front and if it's truly unrepairable, the owner is on the hook for life. When someone forgets to put in a part, I don't blame the engine - I blame the person that put it together.
It's bad to have this issue - I'm not refuting that. My point is, it's not a "bad engine design" and it's not a problem people are going to have to deal with over the life of the car (ie, it's not a ticking time bomb or a recurring nightmare cost). It's not like the E90 M3 with its bearing issues. It's not like the Porsche engines with their IMS issues. It's not like the Ford EcoBoost engines with their misfires/condensation buildup. It's not like the Audi engines with the horrible carbon buildup.
Someone forgot to put a part in. Honda's inspection process didn't catch it. Two mistakes, which they're fixing. People won't have to worry about it recurring again (in their car, once fixed, if fixing is required). It's a one-and-done issue relating to the assembly process.
The K20 has been around for 15 years. This is only a variant of the same engine design (K20Z2) that's been around for a long time - it makes nearly the same power and torque as that engine.
/done
It's bad to have this issue - I'm not refuting that. My point is, it's not a "bad engine design" and it's not a problem people are going to have to deal with over the life of the car (ie, it's not a ticking time bomb or a recurring nightmare cost). It's not like the E90 M3 with its bearing issues. It's not like the Porsche engines with their IMS issues. It's not like the Ford EcoBoost engines with their misfires/condensation buildup. It's not like the Audi engines with the horrible carbon buildup.
Someone forgot to put a part in. Honda's inspection process didn't catch it. Two mistakes, which they're fixing. People won't have to worry about it recurring again (in their car, once fixed, if fixing is required). It's a one-and-done issue relating to the assembly process.
The K20 has been around for 15 years. This is only a variant of the same engine design (K20Z2) that's been around for a long time - it makes nearly the same power and torque as that engine.
/done
02-29-2016, 06:13 AM
#33
By the way, here's an actual interview with the actual CEO with actual words that he said.
http://www.autonews.com/article/2016...tion-is-needed
http://www.autonews.com/article/2016...tion-is-needed
02-29-2016, 06:55 AM
#34
So what's the fix?
02-29-2016, 07:10 AM
#35
If the pin clip is installed wrong or isn't there, then they install one. It's been stated in here, and it seems pretty obvious if you see what they're recalling it for (incorrect or not-installed piston pin clips).
Here's a picture, number 11 in the diagram. The gap in a piston pin clip needs to line up with a notch in the pin bore (the hole the pin slides into). If it doesn't, then that could cause problems. If there's no clip, the pin (number 10) could slide out, gouging the lining of the cylinder or seizing the engine.
EDIT: My mistake, the gap doesn't necessarily have to align with the notch, but there's always a proper way to install the clip depending on the manufacturer.
Here's a picture, number 11 in the diagram. The gap in a piston pin clip needs to line up with a notch in the pin bore (the hole the pin slides into). If it doesn't, then that could cause problems. If there's no clip, the pin (number 10) could slide out, gouging the lining of the cylinder or seizing the engine.
EDIT: My mistake, the gap doesn't necessarily have to align with the notch, but there's always a proper way to install the clip depending on the manufacturer.
02-29-2016, 07:12 AM
#36
Add or adjust the wrist pin clip, if engine is fine. If engine is damaged, I am not sure yet whether they can repair the cylinder liners or if they have to put in a new block, in which case they'll probably have to just swap in a new engine (cheaper to assemble them at source and just swap them in than to pay a tech to remove, repair and reinstall).
"For lack of a clip, an engine was lost"
"For lack of a clip, an engine was lost"
02-29-2016, 07:39 AM
#37
02-29-2016, 08:03 AM
#38
You apparently are not around kids or don't look at them. They're certainly not looking at you (not with a phone in their faces).
The parents I know have to force their 18 year old kids to learn how to drive, but, if their phone breaks, it's the end of the world. They're then asking their parents to take them (via driving... lol) to the store immediately, on the day of phone breaking. Priorities... For us, driving also meant freedom and a way to meet up with and see our friends. For kids these days, their idea of meeting up with friends and connecting is +9hrs of social media (average time a teen spends on social media). They already have their freedom and connection, what do they need a car for?
The parents I know have to force their 18 year old kids to learn how to drive, but, if their phone breaks, it's the end of the world. They're then asking their parents to take them (via driving... lol) to the store immediately, on the day of phone breaking. Priorities... For us, driving also meant freedom and a way to meet up with and see our friends. For kids these days, their idea of meeting up with friends and connecting is +9hrs of social media (average time a teen spends on social media). They already have their freedom and connection, what do they need a car for?
They are all fascinated by their phones/apps/social media. Perhaps it is it gives them the freedom and connection in a virtual way past generations needed cars for. They are all big transit people, bike to work (it is cold here in Minnesota), and the one that drives the most regularly has a Prius. Not because Toyota makes a boring car but we gotta save the planet! Another one bought his first car at 28 and he loved that little Civic! For about a year. Then went back to biking and bus-ing everywhere.
I do NOT buy the "cars are too expensive" argument for why kids don't have them. I started when minimum wage made you $7k per year and bought a decent car. Now minimum wage in my state makes $20k per year and there are tons of cars for $5-10k and they are far more reliable than the cars I had to chose from when I was a teen.
The teens/20 somethings buy expensive clothes, phones, video games and all kinds of stuff they want. They just don't seem to want cars as much.
Fine by me. More room on the highway for my car to stretch its legs.
02-29-2016, 08:47 AM
#39
Originally Posted by Bullwings' timestamp='1456506471' post='23891901
You apparently are not around kids or don't look at them. They're certainly not looking at you (not with a phone in their faces).
The parents I know have to force their 18 year old kids to learn how to drive, but, if their phone breaks, it's the end of the world. They're then asking their parents to take them (via driving... lol) to the store immediately, on the day of phone breaking. Priorities... For us, driving also meant freedom and a way to meet up with and see our friends. For kids these days, their idea of meeting up with friends and connecting is +9hrs of social media (average time a teen spends on social media). They already have their freedom and connection, what do they need a car for?
They are all fascinated by their phones/apps/social media. Perhaps it is it gives them the freedom and connection in a virtual way past generations needed cars for. They are all big transit people, bike to work (it is cold here in Minnesota), and the one that drives the most regularly has a Prius. Not because Toyota makes a boring car but we gotta save the planet! Another one bought his first car at 28 and he loved that little Civic! For about a year. Then went back to biking and bus-ing everywhere.
I do NOT buy the "cars are too expensive" argument for why kids don't have them. I started when minimum wage made you $7k per year and bought a decent car. Now minimum wage in my state makes $20k per year and there are tons of cars for $5-10k and they are far more reliable than the cars I had to chose from when I was a teen.
The teens/20 somethings buy expensive clothes, phones, video games and all kinds of stuff they want. They just don't seem to want cars as much.
Fine by me. More room on the highway for my car to stretch its legs.
Others in here might want to argue the point with me, which is fine (we're both right if we must insist), but younger millennials view things very differently. They're very much in tune with the hipster mentality that cars are also bad for the environment (never mind recycling your smart phone every year so you can have the latest and greatest), and thus gravitate towards public transport and biking. The car is very much a "culture" and way of life - technology has changed that.
And FWIW, I was a nerdy video gamer in high school (over 30+ hours/week on average back in the day), and even I got my driver's license within a month of turning 16. And surprisingly, with all the time I spent online in chat rooms, forums, and online video games, I want nothing to do with modern social media... However, I feel it is necessary to participate to stay current/relevant in the job market.
So back to the initial discussion, yes, I stand by my assertions.
Enthusiasts are a minority breed. Automobile manufacturers don't make money by catering their designs to our wants and desires. There's a greater majority out there driving the development of the automobiles that we now see on the road, and the future generation of new drivers will further push that development in a direction that we do not like.
02-29-2016, 08:52 AM
#40
Community Organizer
Enthusiasts are a minority breed. Automobile manufacturers don't make money by catering their designs to our wants and desires. There's a greater majority out there driving the development of the automobiles that we now see on the road, and the future generation of new drivers will further push that development in a direction that we do not like.