Ford to sell Jag and Rover
Ford needs to bring their EURO stuff.
01-03-2008, 02:00 PM
#12
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Originally Posted by mzk784,Jan 3 2008, 03:34 PM
I always wanted to understand, why British car brands can never survive and be very profitable to owners, these brands are being passed from owner to owner, Rolls Royce, Jaguar, Rover, Aston Martin and couple more I can't remember. why that never happened to french cars for example ?
it is a paradox of the rise and fall of the British Empire...
although Aston's owner, Prodrive, is mainly British... but there are Middle Eastern investors...
01-03-2008, 02:37 PM
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Ford's biggest mistake with Jaguar was one thing: abject and wholesale missing of opportunities.
They missed the rise of the sports sedan segment and didn't think about competing with BMW or Merc until into the 2000s, after both had already had entry-level cars since the 70s/80s. They never even tried to compete with the M3. The X-type was a failure on paper before it even went on sale, being just too small for the segment. Their 5-series/E-class competitor was only in the same class on paper. The S-type was such a monumental failure to earn mindshare. It didn't offer compelling powertrain options until the R came out, and even then the M5 and E55 had already been there for a few years. The XJ was always plagued with reliability issues in addition to very trim interior space, which is something they also could have fixed. In fact I think the XJ was about as unreliable as a large top-tier luxo car could've been. I've never heard of anyone owning an XJ that spoke positively of its reliability. Ergo another missed opportunity to make a reliable "British" auto. The Ferrari-style car-in-the-shop mentality doesn't work when it's a 4-door barge meant to coddle backseaters and shuttle well-coiffed people around in.
Ford also never saw the posh SUV thing coming, something they could have jumped on after the Navigator saw a popularity spurt after introduction. Letting the Rovers languish for so long didn't help either. And this is to say nothing of the crossovers pretty much every other make has now. Cadillac has consistenly been the bully that pushed Ford's luxo brands around on the playground where trucks are concerned. In fact Cadillac seems to have turned it into a science.
Go down the list of new vehicle markets every automaker (even Ford's lesser makes) has capitalized on over the last 20 years and Jaguar will be seen in none of them. There's your problem. Jag has only ever really had two cars since the 60s: the XJ and the XK (under differing names). And now the XK is competing with the Aston DB9. Even if it's less expensive, they both look very similar and are both British marques competing for the same buyer. I daresay I've seen more DB9s on the road than current XKs, in a town that can definitely afford XKs. That should be the exact reverse scenario. Jag's two honest automobiles cannot compete with so many choices out there. Hell even Maserati came back from the dead in the US and starting pissing in Jag's XJ cheerios with the Quattroporte. Lexus and Infiniti put up a 3-series competitor. Infiniti created the swoopy 2-door luxo coupe market with the G35C and the luxo car-based crossover market with the FX. Every step of the way Jaguar was nowhere to be found. And, they have no halo models to draw attention, and haven't had one since 1990.
And now Lexus is moving upward, the S-class caters to buyers across a massive price range, Cadillacs drive better these days, even the 7-series still sells well...any way you look at it the only thing the XJ and XK have going for them is looks. The X and S are garbage entries at this point, nothing more than figureheads for the marque to say it is competing. It's pretty sad, because I think Jag's cars have always been perhaps the prettiest in their segments (save the X-type).
The short of it is Ford wasted so much money and time doing nothing with a storied luxury marque, and both are the worse for it.
EDIT: Oh, and resale on a Jag is worse than Cadillac's.
They missed the rise of the sports sedan segment and didn't think about competing with BMW or Merc until into the 2000s, after both had already had entry-level cars since the 70s/80s. They never even tried to compete with the M3. The X-type was a failure on paper before it even went on sale, being just too small for the segment. Their 5-series/E-class competitor was only in the same class on paper. The S-type was such a monumental failure to earn mindshare. It didn't offer compelling powertrain options until the R came out, and even then the M5 and E55 had already been there for a few years. The XJ was always plagued with reliability issues in addition to very trim interior space, which is something they also could have fixed. In fact I think the XJ was about as unreliable as a large top-tier luxo car could've been. I've never heard of anyone owning an XJ that spoke positively of its reliability. Ergo another missed opportunity to make a reliable "British" auto. The Ferrari-style car-in-the-shop mentality doesn't work when it's a 4-door barge meant to coddle backseaters and shuttle well-coiffed people around in.
Ford also never saw the posh SUV thing coming, something they could have jumped on after the Navigator saw a popularity spurt after introduction. Letting the Rovers languish for so long didn't help either. And this is to say nothing of the crossovers pretty much every other make has now. Cadillac has consistenly been the bully that pushed Ford's luxo brands around on the playground where trucks are concerned. In fact Cadillac seems to have turned it into a science.
Go down the list of new vehicle markets every automaker (even Ford's lesser makes) has capitalized on over the last 20 years and Jaguar will be seen in none of them. There's your problem. Jag has only ever really had two cars since the 60s: the XJ and the XK (under differing names). And now the XK is competing with the Aston DB9. Even if it's less expensive, they both look very similar and are both British marques competing for the same buyer. I daresay I've seen more DB9s on the road than current XKs, in a town that can definitely afford XKs. That should be the exact reverse scenario. Jag's two honest automobiles cannot compete with so many choices out there. Hell even Maserati came back from the dead in the US and starting pissing in Jag's XJ cheerios with the Quattroporte. Lexus and Infiniti put up a 3-series competitor. Infiniti created the swoopy 2-door luxo coupe market with the G35C and the luxo car-based crossover market with the FX. Every step of the way Jaguar was nowhere to be found. And, they have no halo models to draw attention, and haven't had one since 1990.
And now Lexus is moving upward, the S-class caters to buyers across a massive price range, Cadillacs drive better these days, even the 7-series still sells well...any way you look at it the only thing the XJ and XK have going for them is looks. The X and S are garbage entries at this point, nothing more than figureheads for the marque to say it is competing. It's pretty sad, because I think Jag's cars have always been perhaps the prettiest in their segments (save the X-type).
The short of it is Ford wasted so much money and time doing nothing with a storied luxury marque, and both are the worse for it.
EDIT: Oh, and resale on a Jag is worse than Cadillac's.
01-03-2008, 04:22 PM
#15
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my in-laws have had some of the newer Jags, I got to drive the X-type and while it was an OK car there was nothing any better than on my Passat circa the same time.
It was as if Cadillac started selling a Cobalt and callling it the CB. You'd be driving it and so "OK this seems to be a Ford Contour only sold by Jaguar" it really was simply not a near-luxury car.
It was as if Cadillac started selling a Cobalt and callling it the CB. You'd be driving it and so "OK this seems to be a Ford Contour only sold by Jaguar" it really was simply not a near-luxury car.
01-03-2008, 06:14 PM
#16
Originally Posted by Slamnasty,Jan 3 2008, 06:37 PM
Ford's biggest mistake with Jaguar was one thing: abject and wholesale missing of opportunities.
They missed the rise of the sports sedan segment and didn't think about competing with BMW or Merc until into the 2000s, after both had already had entry-level cars since the 70s/80s. They never even tried to compete with the M3. The X-type was a failure on paper before it even went on sale, being just too small for the segment. Their 5-series/E-class competitor was only in the same class on paper. The S-type was such a monumental failure to earn mindshare. It didn't offer compelling powertrain options until the R came out, and even then the M5 and E55 had already been there for a few years. The XJ was always plagued with reliability issues in addition to very trim interior space, which is something they also could have fixed. In fact I think the XJ was about as unreliable as a large top-tier luxo car could've been. I've never heard of anyone owning an XJ that spoke positively of its reliability. Ergo another missed opportunity to make a reliable "British" auto. The Ferrari-style car-in-the-shop mentality doesn't work when it's a 4-door barge meant to coddle backseaters and shuttle well-coiffed people around in.
Ford also never saw the posh SUV thing coming, something they could have jumped on after the Navigator saw a popularity spurt after introduction. Letting the Rovers languish for so long didn't help either. And this is to say nothing of the crossovers pretty much every other make has now. Cadillac has consistenly been the bully that pushed Ford's luxo brands around on the playground where trucks are concerned. In fact Cadillac seems to have turned it into a science.
Go down the list of new vehicle markets every automaker (even Ford's lesser makes) has capitalized on over the last 20 years and Jaguar will be seen in none of them. There's your problem. Jag has only ever really had two cars since the 60s: the XJ and the XK (under differing names). And now the XK is competing with the Aston DB9. Even if it's less expensive, they both look very similar and are both British marques competing for the same buyer. I daresay I've seen more DB9s on the road than current XKs, in a town that can definitely afford XKs. That should be the exact reverse scenario. Jag's two honest automobiles cannot compete with so many choices out there. Hell even Maserati came back from the dead in the US and starting pissing in Jag's XJ cheerios with the Quattroporte. Lexus and Infiniti put up a 3-series competitor. Infiniti created the swoopy 2-door luxo coupe market with the G35C and the luxo car-based crossover market with the FX. Every step of the way Jaguar was nowhere to be found. And, they have no halo models to draw attention, and haven't had one since 1990.
And now Lexus is moving upward, the S-class caters to buyers across a massive price range, Cadillacs drive better these days, even the 7-series still sells well...any way you look at it the only thing the XJ and XK have going for them is looks. The X and S are garbage entries at this point, nothing more than figureheads for the marque to say it is competing. It's pretty sad, because I think Jag's cars have always been perhaps the prettiest in their segments (save the X-type).
The short of it is Ford wasted so much money and time doing nothing with a storied luxury marque, and both are the worse for it.
EDIT: Oh, and resale on a Jag is worse than Cadillac's.
They missed the rise of the sports sedan segment and didn't think about competing with BMW or Merc until into the 2000s, after both had already had entry-level cars since the 70s/80s. They never even tried to compete with the M3. The X-type was a failure on paper before it even went on sale, being just too small for the segment. Their 5-series/E-class competitor was only in the same class on paper. The S-type was such a monumental failure to earn mindshare. It didn't offer compelling powertrain options until the R came out, and even then the M5 and E55 had already been there for a few years. The XJ was always plagued with reliability issues in addition to very trim interior space, which is something they also could have fixed. In fact I think the XJ was about as unreliable as a large top-tier luxo car could've been. I've never heard of anyone owning an XJ that spoke positively of its reliability. Ergo another missed opportunity to make a reliable "British" auto. The Ferrari-style car-in-the-shop mentality doesn't work when it's a 4-door barge meant to coddle backseaters and shuttle well-coiffed people around in.
Ford also never saw the posh SUV thing coming, something they could have jumped on after the Navigator saw a popularity spurt after introduction. Letting the Rovers languish for so long didn't help either. And this is to say nothing of the crossovers pretty much every other make has now. Cadillac has consistenly been the bully that pushed Ford's luxo brands around on the playground where trucks are concerned. In fact Cadillac seems to have turned it into a science.
Go down the list of new vehicle markets every automaker (even Ford's lesser makes) has capitalized on over the last 20 years and Jaguar will be seen in none of them. There's your problem. Jag has only ever really had two cars since the 60s: the XJ and the XK (under differing names). And now the XK is competing with the Aston DB9. Even if it's less expensive, they both look very similar and are both British marques competing for the same buyer. I daresay I've seen more DB9s on the road than current XKs, in a town that can definitely afford XKs. That should be the exact reverse scenario. Jag's two honest automobiles cannot compete with so many choices out there. Hell even Maserati came back from the dead in the US and starting pissing in Jag's XJ cheerios with the Quattroporte. Lexus and Infiniti put up a 3-series competitor. Infiniti created the swoopy 2-door luxo coupe market with the G35C and the luxo car-based crossover market with the FX. Every step of the way Jaguar was nowhere to be found. And, they have no halo models to draw attention, and haven't had one since 1990.
And now Lexus is moving upward, the S-class caters to buyers across a massive price range, Cadillacs drive better these days, even the 7-series still sells well...any way you look at it the only thing the XJ and XK have going for them is looks. The X and S are garbage entries at this point, nothing more than figureheads for the marque to say it is competing. It's pretty sad, because I think Jag's cars have always been perhaps the prettiest in their segments (save the X-type).
The short of it is Ford wasted so much money and time doing nothing with a storied luxury marque, and both are the worse for it.
EDIT: Oh, and resale on a Jag is worse than Cadillac's.
01-04-2008, 06:35 AM
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Check out Top Gears review of the new Jag coupe/ragtop. Clarkson basically says the car is crap, but manages to find some good. Which is what Ford is doing. "Yes the car is crap, but we have this new Microsoft stereo..."
Ford is in real trouble.
Ford is in real trouble.
01-04-2008, 08:12 AM
#19
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Originally Posted by mzk784,Jan 3 2008, 04:34 PM
I always wanted to understand, why British car brands can never survive and be very profitable to owners, these brands are being passed from owner to owner, Rolls Royce, Jaguar, Rover, Aston Martin and couple more I can't remember. why that never happened to french cars for example ?
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