thielepr

Jon this is why you get so flame on this topic. The civic is selling well. Good for Honda. It has good MPG rating and sure is relaible. Actually is a good car. But you have to understand that numbers just don't make the car.

"Personally, for a $17k car, I don't sit around touching the dash all the time." You started this line in a good way witha word " Personally" Your making excuses for poor quality materials. My main problem with the civic is that I think that I will be ripped off if I buy one when you compare to the competition. Fit and finish is not the best and quality materials are below the previous gen. I even test drove a chevy cruze and I was amaze with the interior

Also you say "However, the drivetrain is far and away the best in the class " You simply know that that is not true. It has a good drivetrain that result in realible and good MPG. From that to say that is best in class????? No DCT or six speed auto or direct injection?? in 2012???

JonBoy

I don't care if someone else has a triple clutch transmission with 17 gears - if it doesn't PERFORM the best, it isn't the best.

That's why I say the Civic has the best drivetrain - it gets similar PERFORMANCE numbers but gets the BEST efficiency numbers and it has a proven reliability history. Who wants Ford's clunky DCT if it's rough, plus has trouble hitting its EPA fuel efficiency numbers? Who wants Hyundai's direct injection if the car doesn't even get its advertised mpg (a number of owners have started a petition for the EPA to retest the Elantra due to very poor fuel economy)?

I didn't say Honda had the most advanced powertrain. I said they had the best powertrain (in the Civic) because it performs as well as the others (in acceleration) but still gets far better fuel economy than the rest.

Fact is, Honda put a LOT of time and development into the improved R18 motor, including quite a few changes meant to reduce internal friction and parasitic losses. That motor is an exercise in evolution, not revolution, and the results speak for themselves.

LUV2REV

The new Ford Escape should put put a hearty dent in CR-V sales when it launches this Fall. It looks to be a winner by all accounts with available EcoBoost power. It is finally more akin to it's direct competition in overall execution. Now let's move onto the 2013 Fusion....

thielepr

Jon I won't go back and foward with you again. Because it' like speak to a wall. I understood you point and accept that when I mentioned the civic is a good realible with excellente MPG. But you know wthat I'm willing to sacrifice some MPG for some better quality in the interior, some better insulation, some better less grocery getter styling. In overall some better package, some better car

LUV2REV

Wow !! Electric power steering, rearview camera, bluetooth and a smother engine and transmission, that is groundbreaking in 2012. What about efficient turbocharged engines with direct injection, torque vectoring, park assist, cross traffic alert, shall I go on ? The new CR-V is the same old sheep with a new coat, sorry.

LUV2REV

Top awarded car ever according to who, C&D's 10 best list ?

Steponme

Yes, according to C&D. AND, it's generally accepted as a very good car worldwide.

I'm surprised the Corolla is still selling so well, because it's so boring-looking compared to the others; yet year after year, it continues to sell well. I guess there's a reason why it's the #1-selling car in history.

The '13 Fusion looks pretty damn good! I wonder what its sales will be like.

speedjunky01

yes sir and I buy old cats off the forums especially Honda they use A LOT more metals in them.

TommyDeVito

As quoted in this thread:

https://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/933...on-yahoo-news/

they are selling in high numbers, partly by incentives and IMO, fuel prices, not because they car is some thrilling ride. The engine is OK, the ride isn't, and the interior is crap. You continually have a defend Honda at all costs attitude that is baffling. I still think that you work for them in some fashion because you vehemently back them no matter what they do. Industry insiders, journalists, other automobile executives say the company is currently run by the bean counters and the way Soichiro went about designs and technology isn't happening today. At least they've finally realized it, and have acknowledged it. It only took them 10+ years to figure that out Really accurate article for once.
http://news.yahoo.com/insight-civic-...001429822.html

I remember when Civics were fun to drive...............the new one you are applauding doesn't ride that well and cars are more than paper stats. You have to drive them and the Civic wasn't as fun to drive as my old ones.

And FWIW, I bought a TDI. I drove some of the sippers on the market (Honda Insight, Civic, and CRZ, Toyota Prius) and went out with wanting something that sipped fuel, was still fun to drive and still had solid passing power. It went pretty quick and I ended up at VW after a stint at Audi (no manual trans option in the A3). You marvel at the current Civic's engine, go try a new direct injection Turbo Diesel and get back to us. While they aren't quick off the line, they have ample torque for passing. The difference between the turbo diesel and the other motors I test drove was staggering. 236 ft lbs of torque and you can feel it. I wonder why anyone buys a Prius when you have this option. Diesel here costs the same as premium, so thirty cents extra a gallon to have some ample passing power is worth it to me. It's a safety feature to be able to power past people texting and driving, eating, and all the other shit people do on the road besides drive. A clutch was also mandatory as I will not buy and have never bought a slushbox car. Just like my last cage purchase, the STi, Honda doesn't even offer anything competitive. Add to that, that I don't have to change the oil as much, get 3 years of free maintenance, the diesel motor will out last a gas motor, and I don't have to concern myself with the complexities of hybrids and their batteries should I hold onto the car past 100k miles. Should I keep it long term I will get an extended b2b warranty to cover the German's electronics as I've heard horror stories from the past.

The TDI's also hold their value extremely well. Used models weren't much cheaper than a new one so I picked up a new one and feel good about my equity and the car holding its' value. There is plenty of aftermarket support in terms of suspension and power additions as well. Just like the STi, the turbo powered motor allows for downpipes, chipping/ECU flashing, plenty of options, try to do that with a Honda and get back to us. Even after adding considerable power the MPG isn't adversely affected that much and these motors are known for being able to hit 500,000 miles with ease just like most diesels. And the TDI EPA numbers are low. It gets a lot better MPG than what the sticker says, even CR reported 49 or 50 MPG out of it so barking about the Civic's engine isn't really that big of a deal. Notice the biggest gains from EPA and real world are the Diesels.

http://news.consumerreports.org/cars...ed-40-mpg.html

I got maximum value out of my STi in sale and felt it was the right time to get out of it because of the incoming fuel prices. When fuel prices went through the roof in '08 cars that sucked gas took a hit and were hard to move. I like being liquid. All 3 of my vehicles are extremely liquid should their be a need or want inserted. I also wanted to try a diesel out as I've never owned one, not a car or truck. My car buying strategy is as good as anyone. I buy low (invoice or below), get 0% - 1.9%, and never put down a down payment down so all I'm ever left with is low payments due to me rolling a good amount of equity into every purchase. Buy low, sell high, it's always worked.

Mitsubishi is reportedly working on a new EVO that will be a hybrid diesel and Subaru is working on a new STi motor with an electric turbocharger that I will be looking at in a few years when they come to market. We'll see what fuel does between now and then. One thing I can bet on is Honda not working real hard on fun to drive cars that are affordable. These engineers in the above quoted article have their hands full challenging the current Honda execs and bean counters. And if the Civic was such a stellar automobile why is Honda bringing changes to it so quickly?

JonBoy

I doubt it, for a number of reasons:

1. Escape has a nose that only a mother could love.
2. Ford's tend to be more expensive when optioned to a high trim level - it pushes buyers away - and Ford's are getting MORE expensive compared to the competition.
3. The EcoBoost motors, in practice, have not shown any real traits as fuel efficient motors. Sure, they make good power and torque but they don't seem to live up to real world fuel economy. The Escape's base motor is an old slug, the middle motor is not particularly great (small but turbo'd) and the top motor is powerful and torquey but has shown to be less than fuel efficient in other iterations (Explorer). We'll see how it does in a smaller, lighter package...

Go read up on the next Accord - 7-speed DCT, all new V6 (more powerful than the previous, bigger V6), all new CVT transmissions, all new 4-cyl engine, etc, etc. I am not worried about the Fusion at all. Heck, the Sonata (as good looking as most people find it) still only sells 2/3 of what the Accord sells on any given month (sometimes less, rarely more). The Fusion is a nice looking sedan - I saw the concept in person today at the Edmonton Motor Show - but we'll see how it is in final iteration. I have heard that Ford claims the Fusion Hybrid will be the most efficient in class as they feel they have surpassed Toyota on the hybrid front. That would be quite an accomplishment (and a welcome change - Toyota needs some stiff competition on the hybrid side of things).