Dear Honda: You Need To Make Great Cars Again
02-19-2013, 02:32 PM
#21
Moderator
Originally Posted by Saki GT' timestamp='1361287527' post='22347466
[quote name='TheDonEffect' timestamp='1361236673' post='22346368']You guys need to stop being nostalgic and get with the times...
The world has moved on, and Honda of the past is no more. Hyundai and Kia are now on the scene with new fun cars. Ford is making great cars for the first time in a generation. GM has some interesting cars in its lineup. Even Dodge has the Dart, which is getting great reviews.
Subaru is making great cars as always, and now even the German makes have a good selection of sub $30k cars to choose from across all makes, not just VW.
Even Toyota is making fun cars again. Honda is the new "old" Toyota, bland but dependable, like warm water. The issue is, Honda doesn't want to be a fun car company, it wants to be a green car company. Honda has changed what it is, but if you like what it was, you can find it elsewhere.
I test drove a Dart. Not impressed. It wasn't very comfortable or fun. The whole thing read "cheap" to me, which is too bad. The 300's and Chargers are super luxurious feeling, so we know they're capable of better.
[/quote]
Yes - I love Mazda too - Mazda and Subaru have always strived for fun in their cars. Same with Nissan to a degree - the list wasn't exhaustive.
02-19-2013, 06:43 PM
#22
Registered User
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Honda still makes cars for small niche markets - its just that none of the markets are sporty.
Fit-EV
CR-Z
Clarity
Ridgeline
ZDX
You get the idea - Honda isn't anti-niche, it just doesn't make sports cars, or at least good ones, depending on how you classify a CR-Zzz or ZDX.
Honda wants to make green cars instead of sports cars and it hasn't figured out how to make fun green cars yet, which is why the NSX has been in development for almost a decade.
Fit-EV
CR-Z
Clarity
Ridgeline
ZDX
You get the idea - Honda isn't anti-niche, it just doesn't make sports cars, or at least good ones, depending on how you classify a CR-Zzz or ZDX.
Honda wants to make green cars instead of sports cars and it hasn't figured out how to make fun green cars yet, which is why the NSX has been in development for almost a decade.
CR-Z : OK big time niche. Who wants this?
Clarity : Not really a niche. More like a research experiment in restricted markets. I don't think Honda ever expected to sell these in any volume or for any length of time.
Ridgeline : Nah, not a niche. Just a platform that has run its course. They did sell 40,000 - 50,000 per year in North America for a few years.
ZDX : You can add in the Crosstour. But no, not a niche. The horribly misshapen answer to a question nobody is asking. An abomination. It's not a sedan, it's not an SUV, it's a butt ugly hatchback. BMW had the same nightmare and spawned the X6. With the same results.
02-19-2013, 10:40 PM
#23
Originally Posted by Saki GT' timestamp='1361296524' post='22347986
Honda still makes cars for small niche markets - its just that none of the markets are sporty.
Fit-EV
CR-Z
Clarity
Ridgeline
ZDX
You get the idea - Honda isn't anti-niche, it just doesn't make sports cars, or at least good ones, depending on how you classify a CR-Zzz or ZDX.
Honda wants to make green cars instead of sports cars and it hasn't figured out how to make fun green cars yet, which is why the NSX has been in development for almost a decade.
Fit-EV
CR-Z
Clarity
Ridgeline
ZDX
You get the idea - Honda isn't anti-niche, it just doesn't make sports cars, or at least good ones, depending on how you classify a CR-Zzz or ZDX.
Honda wants to make green cars instead of sports cars and it hasn't figured out how to make fun green cars yet, which is why the NSX has been in development for almost a decade.
CR-Z : OK big time niche. Who wants this?
Clarity : Not really a niche. More like a research experiment in restricted markets. I don't think Honda ever expected to sell these in any volume or for any length of time.
Ridgeline : Nah, not a niche. Just a platform that has run its course. They did sell 40,000 - 50,000 per year in North America for a few years.
ZDX : You can add in the Crosstour. But no, not a niche. The horribly misshapen answer to a question nobody is asking. An abomination. It's not a sedan, it's not an SUV, it's a butt ugly hatchback. BMW had the same nightmare and spawned the X6. With the same results.
02-19-2013, 10:48 PM
#24
So... honda made the ridgeline to appease honda owners who wanted a pickup, hardly your typical honda and a product of giving into the consumer. Toyota killing it with priuses so lets make the insight into one. Whats different about the accord, crv, and civic from what a focus group and bottomline driven management concocted. I guess people wanted a cheaper interior. Thats a far cry from unnecessarily giving double wishbones or selling reliable 8k redlines or making fwd cars compete against rwd cars.
02-20-2013, 12:14 AM
#25
A lot of people simply do not understand that companies are people. Either politically speaking or practically speaking. The great products we have enjoyed from Honda are the creation of groups of people. Each car has a blood lineage as teams work on a car, and the project is done, and teams are reformulated for subsequent projects. This is how a great era was formed in the 80's-2000's, because this was the core of Shingeu Uehara's career. You cannot look at cars as simply the creations of a brand, or expect that a brand can somehow maintain a design approach across generations of people. In fact, it is already quite an accomplishment that Honda sports cars of the 80's-2000's actually drew any DNA from Honda's first F1 efforts. Things like this do not happen easily. Without recapping the whole history, the bloodline ends today with Keinosuke Taki, a chassis engineer for the NSX and promoted to the first NSX-successor project, which was then derailed into the HSV racing project. The HSV must be viewed as the "real" next NSX because of this. I am really not familiar with the project team behind the hybridized performance car that currently bears the NSX Concept title, but from the design decisions they have made on it, I do not really think it is a real successor in the sense I laid out above. What I really want to say with this is that there is little reason for Honda to produce cars in the vein of some of our favorite cars, because the people there are different now.
02-20-2013, 06:23 AM
#27
A lot of people simply do not understand that companies are people. Either politically speaking or practically speaking. The great products we have enjoyed from Honda are the creation of groups of people. Each car has a blood lineage as teams work on a car, and the project is done, and teams are reformulated for subsequent projects. This is how a great era was formed in the 80's-2000's, because this was the core of Shingeu Uehara's career. You cannot look at cars as simply the creations of a brand, or expect that a brand can somehow maintain a design approach across generations of people. In fact, it is already quite an accomplishment that Honda sports cars of the 80's-2000's actually drew any DNA from Honda's first F1 efforts. Things like this do not happen easily. Without recapping the whole history, the bloodline ends today with Keinosuke Taki, a chassis engineer for the NSX and promoted to the first NSX-successor project, which was then derailed into the HSV racing project. The HSV must be viewed as the "real" next NSX because of this. I am really not familiar with the project team behind the hybridized performance car that currently bears the NSX Concept title, but from the design decisions they have made on it, I do not really think it is a real successor in the sense I laid out above. What I really want to say with this is that there is little reason for Honda to produce cars in the vein of some of our favorite cars, because the people there are different now.
02-20-2013, 02:22 PM
#28
A lot of people simply do not understand that companies are people. Either politically speaking or practically speaking. The great products we have enjoyed from Honda are the creation of groups of people. Each car has a blood lineage as teams work on a car, and the project is done, and teams are reformulated for subsequent projects. This is how a great era was formed in the 80's-2000's, because this was the core of Shingeu Uehara's career. You cannot look at cars as simply the creations of a brand, or expect that a brand can somehow maintain a design approach across generations of people. In fact, it is already quite an accomplishment that Honda sports cars of the 80's-2000's actually drew any DNA from Honda's first F1 efforts. Things like this do not happen easily. Without recapping the whole history, the bloodline ends today with Keinosuke Taki, a chassis engineer for the NSX and promoted to the first NSX-successor project, which was then derailed into the HSV racing project. The HSV must be viewed as the "real" next NSX because of this. I am really not familiar with the project team behind the hybridized performance car that currently bears the NSX Concept title, but from the design decisions they have made on it, I do not really think it is a real successor in the sense I laid out above. What I really want to say with this is that there is little reason for Honda to produce cars in the vein of some of our favorite cars, because the people there are different now.
Then there are intentional perception changes that need to be done, because the brand is struggling, such as Hyundai. However, when you have a strong brand such as Honda, there are certain expectations that come with it.
Now I understand that Honda's core consumer wants the current lineup, and no one's really knocking the current lineup for being bad, except for the 2012 misstep with the civic. But what is concerning is Honda's decisions when they choose to make statements like with the crz.
Now don't get me wrong, I've never been a Honda fanboi when it came to their performance cars, dig up on threads on the NSX and you'll see my perspective, but cars like the nsx, crx, s2000, b series powered cars, etc all illustrate a brand personified in the way Jonboy's article described, but these days it's apparent that Honda is striving more for its bottomline (and per Jonboy succeeding) vs building products true to its brand.
I can see the argument though that if honda still produced the kind of cars that made them famous in the 90s that they market will have moved on from them. Fact of the matter is that people dont get excited about hopping up bargain priced econoboxes anymore, and the mustang gts dont make 200hps and handle like a wet noodle anymore. But Honda should have evolved their culture into today's world. A sub 250hp NA 4 cyl in a sub 3000lb car is still relevant even when its competitors all went turbo. A 300hp v6 is still enough for a more heavier weight coupe.
I guess alot of it can be summarized in a simple question: why didnt the crz come with a k20? Or an NA motor to appease its enthusiasts? Why not? They went through the trouble of making the crz and pigeonholed it into a hybrid sporty thing that no one really asked for and no one really cared about. Would it not have made more sense to broaden its appeal by offering another engine choice? Especially since they already have the motors? Would not the fanbois lineup and pay a good amount more for a k20 powered limited edition crz over a civic si?
02-21-2013, 06:54 AM
#30
Moderator
Originally Posted by SpudRacer' timestamp='1361331828' post='22349547
[quote name='Saki GT' timestamp='1361296524' post='22347986']
Honda still makes cars for small niche markets - its just that none of the markets are sporty.
Fit-EV
CR-Z
Clarity
Ridgeline
ZDX
You get the idea - Honda isn't anti-niche, it just doesn't make sports cars, or at least good ones, depending on how you classify a CR-Zzz or ZDX.
Honda wants to make green cars instead of sports cars and it hasn't figured out how to make fun green cars yet, which is why the NSX has been in development for almost a decade.
Honda still makes cars for small niche markets - its just that none of the markets are sporty.
Fit-EV
CR-Z
Clarity
Ridgeline
ZDX
You get the idea - Honda isn't anti-niche, it just doesn't make sports cars, or at least good ones, depending on how you classify a CR-Zzz or ZDX.
Honda wants to make green cars instead of sports cars and it hasn't figured out how to make fun green cars yet, which is why the NSX has been in development for almost a decade.
CR-Z : OK big time niche. Who wants this?
Clarity : Not really a niche. More like a research experiment in restricted markets. I don't think Honda ever expected to sell these in any volume or for any length of time.
Ridgeline : Nah, not a niche. Just a platform that has run its course. They did sell 40,000 - 50,000 per year in North America for a few years.
ZDX : You can add in the Crosstour. But no, not a niche. The horribly misshapen answer to a question nobody is asking. An abomination. It's not a sedan, it's not an SUV, it's a butt ugly hatchback. BMW had the same nightmare and spawned the X6. With the same results.
[/quote]
Exactly...