TheDonEffect

No doubt a C8 Z06 with a manual would've been nuts.

Let me preface this by saying that this is purely conversational, and obviously I'm no expert, this is just straight an opinion.

Sales numbers have definitely spiked this year, but let's not forget that the last two years were low, so I'm sure the data for the C8 thus far has more to do with them catching up with production more than the C8 is hotter than ever.

I think sales data can be a very misleading stat when brand building is the goal. Simply put, you offer alot for less than the competition, you're bound to find buyers for your product. That's a great recipe for when you're competing in more value oriented markets like the low end, but Chevy wanted to bring a younger demo and continue to build on the Corvette legacy, and in that regard I don't think they succeeded. The question is, did the name Corvette add value, or was it that they offered a 1/3 price Ferrari? Is GM selling a timeless classic, or a fast fashion piece?

Before we go on, I'll just say this is my opinion, and I'm botching articulating it, but from my own myopic perspective, I don't think GM did themselves any favors with the C8. For instance, they could've named it Cadillac ABC and they would've sold the same amount for the same money. If 911s were named VWs, I don't think that would've worked unless it came with a sizable price deduction, same with Ferraris. I mean it took a very long time before Ferrari folks even considered the Fiat Dino a Ferrari, even though it's probably one of the best looking "Ferraris" of all time, and imo better looking than the beloved Daytona.

Going back to that younger demo, and this is purely anecdotal, the enthusiasts that I know that bought one eventually moved on or plans to move on, either getting out of that price category altogether meaning they stretched themselves to buy one, or going back to what they always wanted to begin with (GT4s, etc). So unless GM offers earther shattering performance for the money, doesn't seem like it will garner much attention from them again.

And that's the thing, performance now is so accessible from an average consumer perspective. People buy track times, but really as @TommyDeVito said, most are just gonna cruise it and just mash the throttle here and there, in which case you're far better served just buying a Plaid, which is also far less money these days too. So why buy an ICE car if not for the mechanical feeling and driving engagement.

Another misstep in business when desirability is a weighted value, is fixating on sales without paying attention to what made you desirable in the first place. Imagine if Porsche just sold cars based on sales figures, they'd be better served just selling Macans and Cayennes, forget evolving an RR platform, let alone NA, let alone RWD, let alone with a manual. Because if they axed the 911 and only sold what sells easily, they will eventually lose what made the Macan desirable to begin with, which is Porsche nameplate, which was built on the 911's desirability. My point is, society is leaders and followers, and followers comprise the vast majority of sales, but followers need reassurance from leaders that what they're buying is good, and leaders want the interesting stuff. Old addage of race on Sunday sell on Monday, racers inspire soccer dads to buy muscle cars, you have to build enthusiasm around your models so that it spills over to other models.

If you're selling appliances this doesn't matter, but in order to make a business case for specialty models like a sportscar, you need to build in as much margin as you can to make the case, and then ride the momentum into other models, and in this the C8 failed. Because sure it's fast, but is it really faster than the crowns they're chasing? The Tesla Roadster will eventually drop and render this thing obsolete. Granted it won't sound nearly as good, but then again they will neuter the sound by putting on the turbos as well.

Will this thing be the next Ford GT? Will it be an investment piece? The moment these are in question people will unload them.


The C7 was a polarizing generation from the start, I remember when it launched alot of people didn't like it. I liked it, I thought it looked great, but yeah it was a bit overstyled for its time, but in today's world it's actually pretty tame. On top of that, it was the same C5 underpinnings and came with the unproven at the time LT1 engine, replacing the darling LS3. Hindsight is 20/20, but the LT1 has proven to be very stout, and now people are warming up to it for teh value that it is.

They definitely attracted a newer, younger crowd, but I'd argue it's more a fast fashion sort of crowd vs. the crowd that aspired to own one and will hold onto it as a beloved piece... unless they have jorts and white New Balances in their wardrobe. Because the C8 is now fashionable, but fashion is fleeting. Yes, it's a great car underneath, but history has shown that cars that chase performance, especially those without a manual, tend to get lost in the shuffle. Only car that sorta bucks that trend if the R35 GTR, but when you take a look at how much most of them have depreciated (super limited special editions notwithstanding), and then compare them to R34 prices, I'd say the jury is still out on those.

I'm not a manual or nothing guy, myself personally for a car in the performance realm the Zora will occupy, an auto makes much more sense, because the manual shift will surely kill numbers, but that's a separate discussion. I believe alot of success comes from paying attention to your consumer base, or at least the consumber base you're trying to attract and seeing what they want. History repeatedly shows manuals are important/valuable, perhaps not for sales, but rather for brand loyalty/management. Why is that important? Profit margins. Keep selling things at a discount, eventually you eat away at your margins to the point you can't run a profitable business. GM keeps complaining no one buys manuals, yet the take rates on several models from other OEMs absolutely justify the cost. The resale values alone should indicate very clearly that manuals are highly desirable. Yes they don't sell nearly as much as the autos, yet the auto variants almost all become non-existent while the manuals live on. Which means you need to make the business case to keep them, because ultimately that's the flag that will keep your cars exciting for a long time. Bottom line, they can't seem to evolve into the markets they're competing in. Yeah, people won't buy manual minivans and pickups, but a flat plane V8 in a MR car? I'd say more people would clamor for a manual in the Z06 than wanting the ZR1, and in the long run it'll bring over the consumers that will ultimately champion the brand for decades to come.

But for now they'll get the usual suspects of people who buy the latest great thing and then unload, and those who keep them will be the usual Corvette owners. So great, they got the new generation of fast fashion types, and they achieved their sales goals, but the long game is what they failed at.


It's a damn shame really, the 6th gen Camaro chassis is a total gem let down by such questionable decisions by GM. In the Camaro, it's the styling, after people got over how cool the 5th gen looked, the complaints were rampant about the terrible greenhouse. Sure you could adjust to it, but there are other cars out there, and it was just totally unnecessarily impractical (huge doors, tiny windows, small trunk opening, despite being a huge car), so what does GM do? Not fix it, and in fact made it uglier. It's like they looked at the Mustang, at the 3 series of the time, and thought nah let's make a real life hot wheel. Sure it was exciting and sold, but it's fast fashion and people grew tired of it, such a shame because it's such a good car. And many people, myself included, talk about how great it is... and then buy something else. I was super super stoked about the ATS coupe (IIRC you bought one right?), because they fixed the ugly, but then didn't give it the V8, and we were quickly reminded that it's still a Cadillac from a reliability/maintenance perspective.

Styling is so critical when making a successful sports car, it has to look good but also something someone can identify with, which usually means it has to also be open to being customized. Even if a car is marginally better, the better styled marginally inferior car will fair better in the long run. Let me explain.

The 4th gen F body Camaros essentially wiped the floor with the contemporary Mustang back in the day; every magazine rate the Camaro over the Mustang. The LS1 F bodies were legend at that time, WS6 even more so. I hardly ever see them ever, and when I do they're beat to all hell by negligent owners. Yet I still see a ton of Mustangs, many still in great shape. No one has ever written anything nice about the modular 4.6L V8, and the LS1 is legend, and yet no more F bodies.

To further drive home the point, 3rd gen Camaros (Iroc Z era), vs the Fox Body Mustang. Is that even a comparison on which one still has a ton of fanfare?

5th gen Camaro had an LS3, and IRS, and by all accounts should've killed the Mustang. Yet 2013 Coyotes are actually going up in value, meanwhile 5th gen Camaros slowly fade to black.

Which brings us to the 6th gen Camaro, with an all new platform of the time, sweetest chassis GM produced short of the Corvette, and much better than the S550 Mustang, but I think we know how this story will end.

Meanwhile, Dodge continues to make the Challenger/Charger on the same decades old platform, which was already an old Mercedes platform to begin with, and really has been what kept Dodge afloat. Btw, every one of their models offer manuals. Yet manuals are dead.

An LT6 powered gen 6 Camaro could've been good enough to forgive all of its shortcomings. If I handled the marketing, I wouldn't even market it in the traditional sense, I would "leak" it by just sending an email to all 1LE owners or something, saying thank you for purchasing the 1LE, we'd like to offer to our most hardcore fans a special opportunity to make a central office production order for an LT6 powered Camaro. Yup, revive the Camaro COPO name. Sure, if it hits maybe later they offer more of them, but the early adopters will get the COPO designation.

Absolutely, but I'll also add it's also just bad management direction who then blame the market for their terrible decisions. Take the new M2, eventually it'll flop and BMW will blame the lack of interest. When in fact if they just continued to make the M2C and improved upon it, it would still sell well. People keep saying how niche vehicles don't sell, yet Mazda keeps producing Miatas. GM says they need to upstream, and Honda with the NSX for that matter, meanwhile Lotus can't build Emiras fast enough. People say you need RWD/AWD, yet Honda dealers continue to price gouge CTRs.

The problem with corporate culture now is that the wrong people are flooded there, people with ideas, vision, etc, no longer make it there unless they were instrumental in finding the company. As such, the decisions being made at the highest levels are becoming so predictably unoriginal it's kinda hilarious. Toyota is sorta doing this about face right now namely because Toyoda-san himself put his foot down.

TheDonEffect

Perfect timing, I just said that while alot of the directionless OEMs continue to blame the market for the lack of demand, a small plucky company still manages to sell the most impractical car in the affordable market. And they did so by listening to their consumer base and not the focus groups who would've wanted a bigger car with more cup holders. They could've looked at the NC and said the sportscar market is dying, so what did they do, they flipped off the focus groups, removed the cupholder and actually made the car smaller. And on top of that they styled it beautifully. They even said F U to the general enthusiast who wanted more power, but quietly actually gave it a respectable amount of beans... it's S2000 fast now.

If I were Mazda though I'd significantly throttle back production as far as they could, and only release limited editions with a bunch of desirable options to increase margins. Because it's so late in the life cycle, they're essentially going to be competing against its own used car market. But even at those numbers, it won't like it'll be unobtainium or get ridiculous, just make up for the loss profits from selling less.

TommyDeVito

They are only one mfr. and you have to view it through the lens of the entire automotive market. Within 3 years, few and far between. My wig splitter needs a new car and she didn’t like the Rolla hatch, not real big on the Civic either. So I told her to look at the 3. Then I checked out the configurator for her and to get anything worth a damn on it, it’s $30k+. That’s bang for the buck? Not to me. If you want the engine and AWD, it’s $35k and at that point might as well get a WRX or GRC.

If you are referring to the Miata, I’ll give you that. But that’s just one model.

clutchcargo

I feel the Mazda brand on the whole tries to provide value for the buck.
Personal perspective is a big deal in a conversation like this and I appreciate you noting a $35K price point and what you can get for that level of spend.
Yes, a WRX or GRC offers a better performance story board for that buck and Mazda.
I just feel Mazda (never owned one by the way) provides a nicer car, albeit with less performance than the 2 you mentioned.
Where I am useless here is that for me spending less than $50K for a car is a why bother thing, not gonna get anything I want.
I agree with the point the middle ground product is being erased.
My happiness comes from the fact that there is a lot of tremendous six figure product to be had, so I keep working and buying buildings to facilitate poor judgement auto purchasing.
Come on Nissan, where is my R36?

TommyDeVito

I hear that. We all have a different perspective, or opinion, on cost. I ride sportbikes. In that lens, all cars are way overpriced for what you get. I could have bought 2 brand new literbikes for 10k less than I paid for my last car, which was purchased October 2023. And that’s 2 state of the art brand new super bikes, more or less. That’s crazy. To me, and many people I know, all MSRP’s on new vehicles have gotten out of control. 60k to get a decent truck. 30k is almost the entry level to get an economy car. Across the board it’s like the MSRP’s have gone up 33% over the last 5 years. I bought a truck in 2019 for $33.5k brand new. AWD, does what I need it to do. Same truck today, $43k, same trim, same everything. Bought a ski that same year, at invoice. Factory supercharged, larger hull for the chop. Now that same ski, you can’t get one for less than $20k. That’s 33% more than I paid for mine and I bought it brand new. It even has a lighter hull than the current one as the mfr chintzed out and went to a cheaper cost hull, but it’s heavier. It’s crazy.

But at the same point I don’t have the single vehicle mindset. I’d rather have multiple vehicles, that are a bit less expensive(r), than putting all my eggs into one basket. Thankfully, I have one remaining road legal vehicle to buy, and it’s just a newer version of my DD, and it will be a CPO, not new. When I upgrade my DD will have been leased, purchased, and used for 11 years straight so it’s time to get a newer one. Thankfully, this upgrade won’t cost me a lot and I’ll be out of the road legal car market for 10+ years. My next road legal car will hopefully be an electric Hal9000 driving me around as I sit in the back to run errands, get groceries etc.

And $50k to get anything…..That’s actually my barrier. And it has nothing to do with income. It’s basic economics. A 6MT or 7MT Z06 is worth 70-80k to me. Not a base Cayman, one trim up, is worth $60k. M2C, $60k new. After that you lose me completely. It’s just not worth the scratch to me. I wouldn’t daily them anyways. I bought 6 acres in the mountains, in a national forest, with my land bordering BLM land, next to a massive, clean lake, for less than what a new Z06 costs. Just my opinion, but cost on cars have gotten obscene and I think a reckoning is gonna happen at some point. Inflation, and salaries aren’t increasing to offset. At some point, kaboom.

TheDonEffect

Yeah vehicle pricing is getting ridiculous, but there are still some examples of it not getting too out of hand. Mazda is interesting in that they're trying to split the entry level brands and luxury brands, shooting between Toyota and Lexus. Whether they accomplished this or not is up to the individual, but they do make pretty cars that have good value, especially so on the used market. But yeah the Mazda3 does get expensive in a hurry, but option for option compared to a WRX, it's still priced fairly, and while the WRX is more performance focused, the 3 is just a nicer car overall, so it warrants the cost.

This has been a hot topic lately, car pricing, which we've discussed alot here, with some of you all pointing out that in some cases the price inflation isn't all bad. So I looked into it.

The Civic hatchback in EX-L form is actually decent value. I helped my sister in law get one, sticker is 28 and we got it for invoice right before the market fell apart. I remember Civic EXs in 2004 going for 21k, so considering that this is a far superior car than a 2004 Civic EX, with leather, heated seats to boot, I'd say it's reasonably priced.

But then we get into performance cars and it's a whole different story. Mustang GTs start at 40k now which is ridiculous. I remember negotiating for brand new Camaro SS 1LE for 40k.

But again, there are exceptions, like my GRC that had a sticker of 40k. But again, going back to 2004, the STIs were going for mid 30s, and those things were built to an agricultural standard. Not saying the GRC is a luxury car by any means, it's not even class leading within its class (Civic imo takes the cake), but the interior and overall build quality is loads better.

S2K_VS

Several interesting perspectives in this thread. I'll offer another opinion. GM did an amazing thing with offering the C8 platform at the price that it did. BUT, they shot themselves in the foot big time on the styling. I'll just put it bluntly, the C8 looks like a cheap supercar wannabe. To use a shoe analogy, the Italian supercars or Porsche are selling a flashy Air Jordan. While the C8 looks like the Payless Shoe store imitation. It's a shame because they have talented designers. My guess is their execs were overbearing and did a design by committee instead of relying on the design talent. The C2 and C7 Vettes are proof that GM has design talent. I'm not sure why they neglected this all too important element with the C8. Regardless of how fast or high performance a car is, the first thing people connect with is the looks.

ThreeD

Yep
It looks terrible. The rear 1/4 view kills it.
The Z06 is really enticing car from the performance and drivetrain perspective, but these cars need to be pretty and it hits a big 0/10 on that one.
Won't buy one because it'll always be ugly.

TheDonEffect

I disagree, I think the C8 is styled well. I mean will future generations of designers have images of this on the inspiration board? No, but if this were an NSX, everyone would be loving on it. Yes, there are a few missteps, like having the door vents broken up by the door opening, but for the most part I find the design nice. The issue is that it's not a Lambo, or Ferrari, or whatever, so unless they strike absolute gold with their design, it will always be regarded as cheap. It's like how people fall over themselves with Rolexes, it literally looks like everything else out there at this point, and the fact that people have a hard time spotting fakes (even more so these days) tells you that quality oftentimes is more perceived than seen.

JonBoy

There is already a modern NSX and it looks quite a bit better than a C8, in my opinion. I find the C8 looks better in person than it does in pictures but it definitely has some awkward details and angles. I think the Z06 looks the best of all.

I do wish the NSX had the C8 drivetrain(s), if only for the sake of simplicity. The latest NSX is awesome to drive and it's an everyday supercar, but it needs a little more "flash" and emotion to truly make it special. It's very quick, very capable, very comfortable, and very nice to look at but it's lacking the emotional element of sound (in particular) that is needed for a car at this price point.