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Cayman Engine Failure at Carolina Motorsports Park HPDE
I bought this up a bit in 2 other threads, but don't want to distract too much over there so here I am, making a thread specifically for this. As the thread title states, this past weekend I was attending an HPDE hosted by NASA at Carolina Motorsports Park. During my 3rd session of the first day I suffered engine failure and currently fear the worst.
Vehicle background: 2006 Cayman S with 117,052 miles. Suspension overhaul performed roughly 15,000 miles ago with Ohlins R&T coilovers, Ground Control front camber plates, new OEM front LCAs, new rear OEM upper strut mounts. Installed (last week) Elephant Racing adjustable rear toe control arms. FVD Motorsports deep oil sump with X51 baffles installed 1 year ago. New front caliper piston seals installed 2 weeks ago. Original clutch. Tires on track were Nitto NT05s (with 4 previous track days on them).
So what happened was... in the 3rd session, right after I lifted for Turn 14 (final turn of the track) the engine shut of and CEL came on. I heard nothing beforehand through my helmet to give me any sort of warning. Nor did any warning/idiot lights pop up on the dashboard beforehand to warn me of impeding disaster. I was able to roll the car back to the paddock and during that time tried to restart the engine, to no avail. See below for the video. Of note, I think the engine starts to sound "different" around the 1:19, and more clearly at the 1:30 points in the video. Failure occurs roughly at 1:40.
As stated above, I could not get the engine to restart while rolling back in the paddock. Additionally, since the engine shut off abruptly while on track, the coolant temps starting going sky high. Never fully in the red, but the needle stayed all the way at the top of the dial for a good while until the engine bay cooling fan could evacuate enough heat. In the meantime, while the engine cooled off I read the error code, P0301. This code states that a cylinder 1 misfire occurred. Okay I thought, not too bad. I hadn't heard any horrible sounds from the engine right before it shut off. There was no smoke from the exhaust. No fluids leaking from underneath the car. The digital display also indicated that I still had a full sump of oil. My initial thoughts were that one of my coil packs had failed. However my view of things got worse when I was able to restart the engine, which I was able to do about 30-45 minutes later. It took some coaxing, but when it finally started up it was not firing on all cylinders. And then after a few seconds the console display stated "Low Oil Pressure". Oh ****, that...that is very bad. I was able to get an on-site mechanic to come over and take a look at the car, mostly in hopes that he could manually verify what my oil pressure situation was. While waiting for him I removed the engine cover. When he arrived, we started up the car again and it sounded the same as before, bad and not running on all cylinders. Then after a few seconds a new metallic banging sound started (sounded like a socket attachment being shook inside a tin can). When that happened we immediately shut down the engine and he stated in his professional opinion that I had a serious internal engine problem (no kidding...). I had already assumed my weekend was over, and at this point I just packed it all up and planned to investigate things further myself at home.
Back at home, Monday afternoon, I drained the engine oil. Used a strainer with coffee filters, and also had all the oil dump out into a big clear plastic bin. Many, many metal flakes were found. See photos, and these links for video clips:
This is obviously a huge red flag. I'm guessing that is bearing material. I've sent out a sample to Blackstone for analysis (though I'm not sure it'll matter). I'm inclined to believe that this evidence alone is enough to conclude that my engine is toast and requires a rebuild/replacement. Though I am tempted to keep going a bit deeper. Next step would be removal of the oil sump to take a look at that, as well as up until the engine a little bit. Beyond that I could remove the spark plugs to inspect them, and purchase a scope to look into the engine itself through the spark plug holes.
What do you guys think? Should I keep digging? It's probably futile but more information is never a bad thing. If the engine is indeed toast then I think the best financial move is to just sell the car as is. Currently the car is sitting in my garage on jackstands 18" off the ground.
Sorry to hear man. I would say sure might as well do a little digging, the effort shouldn't be too bad and you aren't likely to screw anything up any worse. As far as ease you can run a simple compression test.
Assuming you do need a new engine how much are replacements? I've heard big numbers thrown around but don't know how much it's truth vs hype. It seems like the early Caymans would be a good candidate for an LS swap. Solid chassis, good car overall, etc.
OK rehashing from the other thread, but J35 or 2GR instead of LS, assuming you want to keep the car.
The gear ratios would be completely wrong for an LS, and you run the risk of chewing up the gearbox because the LS almost certainly produces far more torque than it's rated for. You'd also have horrible gas mileage, and the wheels would spin too much in lower gears.
Japanese V6 keeps the 6 cylinder soundtrack, gives you a little more displacement, 50lbs weight reduction, cheap replacement engines, and cheap engine parts. I believe the height of the LS is similar to the two V6s, but since they're shorter, the throttle body and intake tube can probably clear the rear part of the firewall. The downside is that you don't have a ready-to-go kit like the LS.
Another possibility is to use a 4.3L LV3, which I think would mostly bolt up to the Renegade Hybrids LS swap kit, while avoiding the transmission mismatch problem. That engine isn't particularly powerful though, and won't sound as good.
Last edited by serialk11r; 11-11-2020 at 12:29 PM.
sorry to hear about your circumstances. How many events were on the motor prior? Has it ever consumed oil prior to this happening? Were you always on 2-00TW or have r-comps been used before?
Sorry to hear man. I would say sure might as well do a little digging, the effort shouldn't be too bad and you aren't likely to screw anything up any worse. As far as ease you can run a simple compression test.
Assuming you do need a new engine how much are replacements? I've heard big numbers thrown around but don't know how much it's truth vs hype. It seems like the early Caymans would be a good candidate for an LS swap. Solid chassis, good car overall, etc.
Yeah, I might as well check the compression. From what I see another used M97 engine is roughly $9-10,000, and another $2-3k for labor (which I may actually be able to do with (heavy) assistance from friends). However, I would not want to just drop in another engine which could suffer the same failure I just did. I would want a new or reman'd engine and those are $15k+. An LS swap is one consideration, but that's not cheap either. Conversion kits look to be around $6000 alone, then throw in engine cost...and I believe the install and tuning labor is well well beyond my (and friends') ability.
Originally Posted by serialk11r
OK rehashing from the other thread, but J35 or 2GR instead of LS, assuming you want to keep the car.
The gear ratios would be completely wrong for an LS, and you run the risk of chewing up the gearbox because the LS almost certainly produces far more torque than it's rated for. You'd also have horrible gas mileage, and the wheels would spin too much in lower gears.
Japanese V6 keeps the 6 cylinder soundtrack, gives you a little more displacement, 50lbs weight reduction, cheap replacement engines, and cheap engine parts. I believe the height of the LS is similar to the two V6s, but since they're shorter, the throttle body and intake tube can probably clear the rear part of the firewall. The downside is that you don't have a ready-to-go kit like the LS.
Another possibility is to use a 4.3L LV3, which I think would mostly bolt up to the Renegade Hybrids LS swap kit, while avoiding the transmission mismatch problem. That engine isn't particularly powerful though, and won't sound as good.
Those are curious suggestions. Ones I had not considered. Would it be crazy to consider a K20/24 swap? LOL.
Originally Posted by Carbon Blue
sorry to hear about your circumstances. How many events were on the motor prior? Has it ever consumed oil prior to this happening? Were you always on 2-00TW or have r-comps been used before?
I'm the 3rd owner of this car, and I'm 75% certain that at least one PO tracked his car. Personally, CMP was the 11th track day I've attended with this car and the NT05s are the stickiest tires I've ever used (3 events including CMP). Before the NT05s I just used my street Michelin PSSs. In the past the car has consumed a bit of oil. 1/2 to 1 quart of oil between oil changes was fairly normal, but all the Blackstone analysis that I've had done were good. 18 months ago at RRR I had my AOS get overloaded on the track and because of that I consumed about 1 quart of oil over the weekend (after the event I replaced the AOS).
Those are curious suggestions. Ones I had not considered. Would it be crazy to consider a K20/24 swap? LOL.
I thought about that one too. The issue is that a longitudinal 4 cylinder is quite long and tall and might run into clearance issues the way V8 swaps do. The V6s are short and should fit right where the original engine went, being taller but narrower. Besides, more cylinders = better sound
A modified J32 would be my preference for a base 986/987 because the lower torque helps the gearbox survive, you can keep the revs higher, and the engine is a little smaller. The Honda engines are SOHC + timing belt so they are a bit lighter, and the J32 has the maxed out bore with shorter stroke. If you want more power, I think the 2GR breathes a bit better, and it should be safe to rev it to 8000rpm with just valve springs, but flashing the ECU is difficult.
Another V6 possibility is an Audi 30 valve. You'd need more custom parts to make it produce power, but I think it bolts up to the Porsche trans (which is just an Audi/VW transaxle). It's also not a Honda or Toyota so I trust it less :P
Last edited by serialk11r; 11-11-2020 at 01:24 PM.
Yeah, I might as well check the compression. From what I see another used M97 engine is roughly $9-10,000, and another $2-3k for labor (which I may actually be able to do with (heavy) assistance from friends). However, I would not want to just drop in another engine which could suffer the same failure I just did. I would want a new or reman'd engine and those are $15k+. An LS swap is one consideration, but that's not cheap either. Conversion kits look to be around $6000 alone, then throw in engine cost...and I believe the install and tuning labor is well well beyond my (and friends') ability.
Those are curious suggestions. Ones I had not considered. Would it be crazy to consider a K20/24 swap? LOL.
Ya $15k is steep. I guess it just depends on what you want/expect for the car. I've been seriously thinking about a down the road project car for an LS swap, and the early Caymans seem like they might be a good candidate. LS's are cheap, compact, make good power, have plentiful parts, and a big aftermarket support. The only "problem" with the LS is they have "too much" torque arguably for some cars/chassis to handle. Seeing as how manuals and NA engines are going the way of the dodo, newer cars arguably aren't going to give you a better driving experience these days.
K swap while being a good swap, seems like a whole lot of work for no more power.
That sucks man, I find myself getting upset just reading your story.
Yeah as mentioned, why not, excuse to buy a bore scope and maybe do a leakdown test should you want to. One thing is for sure though, whatever the issue is, it will need an engine rebuild at the least, but a replacement is probably what's necessary. Any further investigating would be to satisfy curiosity more than anything else.
I dunno, casually I'd say maybe a oil starvation situation leading to scoring or something, which led to the misfire, I dunno. I knew a couple of guys who bought a 996 and first gen Boxster with blown engines (IMS) for cheap and replaced the motor. All in all, they said the work wasn't so so bad, I think the 996 guy bought the motor for like 10k? I dunno, may be worth sourcing a used motor and swapping them out, probably will get more for it.
Regarding swaps (which I know isn't where the OP originally intended), I'd argue the audi 4.2 V8 from the S8 is the way to go. It BOLTS-UP to the cayman trans and has similar output (but more under the curve) as the Porsche H6.
11-11-2020, 11:41 AM
Cayman Engine Failure at Carolina Motorsports Park HPDE
