BMW - the ultimate vending machine
07-23-2020, 07:38 AM
#31
Well the way I look at it. For $9/month I have unlimited access to music in a portable fashion. Thats about 10 records/year to purchase, give or take. I can add or shrink my collection at any time without spending anymore money. While on a road trip my wife can pull up music we might not care to own but think is fun to listen to. It's pretty hard to sling around a CD collection these days and I don't want to get into the business of loading my iTunes with purchases. The shorter version is I don't 'care' about owning music, I 'care' about listening to music.
The challenge when that becomes a material possesion like a car is that same line of thinking doesn't hold for me. Partly because I see music like I do TV/Movies - owning those is foolish. The music I listened to in the 80s and 90s isnt in my regular play list anymore. Similarly, I don't rewatch 90s movies regularly. Ownership brings no value. The forms have also changed. How easy is it to watch a VHS movie collection? Not very. Streaming it provides flexibilities ownership does not. Now with a car I want to own the whole thing like I do a house.
The challenge when that becomes a material possesion like a car is that same line of thinking doesn't hold for me. Partly because I see music like I do TV/Movies - owning those is foolish. The music I listened to in the 80s and 90s isnt in my regular play list anymore. Similarly, I don't rewatch 90s movies regularly. Ownership brings no value. The forms have also changed. How easy is it to watch a VHS movie collection? Not very. Streaming it provides flexibilities ownership does not. Now with a car I want to own the whole thing like I do a house.
07-23-2020, 07:48 AM
#32
The challenge when that becomes a material possesion like a car is that same line of thinking doesn't hold for me. Partly because I see music like I do TV/Movies - owning those is foolish. The music I listened to in the 80s and 90s isnt in my regular play list anymore. Similarly, I don't rewatch 90s movies regularly. Ownership brings no value. The forms have also changed. How easy is it to watch a VHS movie collection? Not very. Streaming it provides flexibilities ownership does not. Now with a car I want to own the whole thing like I do a house.
Other cars, it is about the ownership and stewardship that comes along with it.
07-23-2020, 08:11 AM
#33
TommyDeVito try moving to a place in the country with lower taxes and stop complaining like a whiny little baby. You own your life so act like it. So over people complaining about things they can change. Clearly there is some reason you enjoy living where you do or you'd move - so pay your taxes and bequiet about it. Or get into politics to change it, or vote or do what I first said - move.
When 4K is old school like VHS and you cannot play it anymore you're just going to be that old person complaining about how 8 tracks were amazing cause you never had to rewind them. Just cause the options available in the marketplace don't work for you doesn't mean they suck or have no value. In fact, sales would suggest they dont suck. What the market has shown is most people aren't audio files, they just want to listen to music wherever they go. Makes them no better or worse then you. Most people listen to music because of the way it makes them feel and similarly there is a tone of music options out there.
And why would I complain about 4k? Do you hear me complaining about 1080p? No dude, you are just trying to argue at this point with baseless bullshit. I said streaming quality sucks, and it does. I said nothing about pixel density. Learn your AV then come and talk to me.
Streaming audio does not bother me in the slightest.
While I generally agree with the entire phone comment, consider for a moment the very lame reality we're discssing matters on a website instead of face to face, with people we'd never meet. Feel free to be the pot or kettle - it don't matter to me. FYI I don't spend much time on my phone but I do spend about 10hours/day on a computer making a living. Technology has it's place. Parents have been failing their kids for decades by not understanding the implications of technology on their development. Give it a few more generations and they'll gladly take a chip to avoid having to lug a phone around....
07-23-2020, 10:29 AM
#34
Agree on the tech thing. I have bachelors and masters degrees in engineering and have participated and/or managed the development of many IOT and med devices (Some medical IOT devices even lol). So I like tech, but also am not all enamored by the latest greatest thing, probably because I work all day in the tech space. I actually have found that a large percentage of the engineers I work with, even a lot of younger ones, tend to be of the same mindset that a lot of shiny new tech is a passing thing, people spend too much time on their devices, etc. I think we can all agree on some of those points.
07-23-2020, 10:36 AM
#35
I see leasing a car in the same fashion as paying for a music service. We pay X amount a month for a fully warrantied car with tire/rim and annual service included. I don't want to own it, just pay for the service of having it while it's in its prime.
Other cars, it is about the ownership and stewardship that comes along with it.
Other cars, it is about the ownership and stewardship that comes along with it.
01 4Runner is a great example. Bought it for $14k with 70,000 miles on it. Currently has 250,000 miles on it. I do all my own work, and have replaced an alternator, rear axle seal and wheel bearing (Cause the leaking axle seal caused the grease to wash out of it), radiator at somewhere around 150,000 miles, 02 sensor and I rebuilt the front end last winter (loaded control arms, inner/outer tie rods and ball joints). And even on the front end rebuild, a lot of the parts were still pretty solid, but figured if I am replacing some of it on a 250,000 mile vehicle I may as well replace it all. Otherwise, normal maintenance items, including a timing belt change. So I paid on it for 2 years, bought it in 2005. So I have 13 years of no car payments to make up for however much "Value" I would get from a car lease and any provided service.
My others are all Toyota products as well (minus the S2k) and are in the same boat or likely will be so would have lost majorly on lease deals.
I know a few people that came out ahead on leases, but I also know a lot who spent way more leasing than buying. Gotta watch those mileage agreements
07-23-2020, 11:40 AM
#36
I am in tech (Cyber Security) and try to live as low tech, tech free at home as possible. I just don't see the value that Alexa and like brings to life. I want close to zero any IOT devices in the house. The only high tech must have's I want in a car beyond the basics is streaming Bluetooth audio.
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JonBoy (07-28-2020)
07-23-2020, 11:54 AM
#37
I am in tech (Cyber Security) and try to live as low tech, tech free at home as possible. I just don't see the value that Alexa and like brings to life. I want close to zero any IOT devices in the house. The only high tech must have's I want in a car beyond the basics is streaming Bluetooth audio.
07-24-2020, 11:46 AM
#38
I'm a millennial and am not a fan of the rise in subscription mentality as a whole. I will admit that generally, Millennials and Gen-z are seeing things as consumables that past generations have not viewed in that way. They also do not take pride in ownership in the same way that past generations have. I think for music/video streaming, it makes a lot of sense because those are not durable goods. Though the idea of consumption/ownership of vehicles is shifting rapidly as a whole, they are still considered durable goods and I am skeptical of subscriptions in that area. With that being said, there may be value in a purchasing model that allows new technology to be adapted to older vehicles. With the inevitable rise of tech in new vehicles, used vehicles have become outdated more quickly as software and hardware have rapidly changed. For that reason, I applaud companies like Tesla for allowing software updates to be added retroactively even if it is at a cost. In gaming, I used to hate the idea of paying for additional map/content packages. After working in tech, I can now understand why the content needs to be paid for. It costs money for a company to develop and needs to incentivize further development. I do not like the idea of renting (subscription) hardware and/or software, a la the BMW model but do see value in the freedom that differing purchasing models allow.
On a separate but related topic, I think that some markets will have to change how durable goods are traded. Taking the previous idea of rent vs. buy to housing, I think a clear change is inevitable. People have become more transient over time as the job market has changed from employees trying to stay at companies for an entire career to being mercenaries for hire. The information age has also lead to flexibility in remote work and it has become relatively cheaper/easier to move away from your family. With all of that being said, I think that houses will need to be easier/cheaper to trade hands in the future. Online platforms like zillow/redfin/etc, though flawed, are beginning to lead the charge there. I do think there are significant issues/concerns with having an online platform/algorithm determine the value of something as important as a home but that's a separate idea/conversation.
Currently, I'm pretty satisfied with my 00 4Runner and 06 S2000. While a fancy new vehicle would be great, it's not $30k+ interest/depreciation great to me. Having the latest and greatest tech in vehicles is not a high priority to me. I will be adding a modern head unit to the 4Runner and maybe a backup camera but that's all I really need. Electronics that have access to controls of the vehicle (steer by wire/brake by wire/lane departure/auto braking) scare the crap out of me, fundamentally. Especially when you start considering the connectivity of these vehicles. I'm not a conspiracy theorist or anything but the possibility for harm that it brings seems to outweigh the public good IMO. Fully autonomous vehicles that communicate with each other would probably be safer than people driving (I don't want it but it's a true statement). Letting people know that if they stop paying attention, something is there to save them is a flawed system IMO. It also unnecessarily adds to the cost/environmental damage that creating a vehicle necessitates in the modern era.
Another commentary that I think is relevant here is about the mentality/incentivization of the subscription/rental/loan model that exists in our culture currently. In good times, the current incentives make it economically detrimental to hold cash and build liquid wealth. I think the current economic environment is a clear demonstration that promoting the ideology, as a whole, is unstable. Businesses and people need to operate on debt to compete with other businesses and people that are operating on debt. Case studies - cost of housing, commercial real estate, and education over time vs. average incomes - All have risen tremendously in relation to income. There are a lot of factors there but I believe the increasing availability of cheap debt and competition against others who are willing take a slightly higher risk and go into slightly more debt over time have snowballed all of those things higher. They encourage people to live paycheck to paycheck without owning anything and I would argue decrease people's incentives and ability to build up their own communities. People have gotten more into the mentality of consuming things and less about creating a local environment that is positive to live in. There is a good side to it as well, in terms of not being tied to "things" and being free to move around. I like the idea of living for experiences and not to have the biggest house, nicest car, etc. However, we can't all live on vacation and traveling the world for "experiences." It's just not sustainable unless other countries decide to subsidize the dollar's value for some reason.
On a separate but related topic, I think that some markets will have to change how durable goods are traded. Taking the previous idea of rent vs. buy to housing, I think a clear change is inevitable. People have become more transient over time as the job market has changed from employees trying to stay at companies for an entire career to being mercenaries for hire. The information age has also lead to flexibility in remote work and it has become relatively cheaper/easier to move away from your family. With all of that being said, I think that houses will need to be easier/cheaper to trade hands in the future. Online platforms like zillow/redfin/etc, though flawed, are beginning to lead the charge there. I do think there are significant issues/concerns with having an online platform/algorithm determine the value of something as important as a home but that's a separate idea/conversation.
Currently, I'm pretty satisfied with my 00 4Runner and 06 S2000. While a fancy new vehicle would be great, it's not $30k+ interest/depreciation great to me. Having the latest and greatest tech in vehicles is not a high priority to me. I will be adding a modern head unit to the 4Runner and maybe a backup camera but that's all I really need. Electronics that have access to controls of the vehicle (steer by wire/brake by wire/lane departure/auto braking) scare the crap out of me, fundamentally. Especially when you start considering the connectivity of these vehicles. I'm not a conspiracy theorist or anything but the possibility for harm that it brings seems to outweigh the public good IMO. Fully autonomous vehicles that communicate with each other would probably be safer than people driving (I don't want it but it's a true statement). Letting people know that if they stop paying attention, something is there to save them is a flawed system IMO. It also unnecessarily adds to the cost/environmental damage that creating a vehicle necessitates in the modern era.
Another commentary that I think is relevant here is about the mentality/incentivization of the subscription/rental/loan model that exists in our culture currently. In good times, the current incentives make it economically detrimental to hold cash and build liquid wealth. I think the current economic environment is a clear demonstration that promoting the ideology, as a whole, is unstable. Businesses and people need to operate on debt to compete with other businesses and people that are operating on debt. Case studies - cost of housing, commercial real estate, and education over time vs. average incomes - All have risen tremendously in relation to income. There are a lot of factors there but I believe the increasing availability of cheap debt and competition against others who are willing take a slightly higher risk and go into slightly more debt over time have snowballed all of those things higher. They encourage people to live paycheck to paycheck without owning anything and I would argue decrease people's incentives and ability to build up their own communities. People have gotten more into the mentality of consuming things and less about creating a local environment that is positive to live in. There is a good side to it as well, in terms of not being tied to "things" and being free to move around. I like the idea of living for experiences and not to have the biggest house, nicest car, etc. However, we can't all live on vacation and traveling the world for "experiences." It's just not sustainable unless other countries decide to subsidize the dollar's value for some reason.
07-24-2020, 03:38 PM
#39
What’s all the hate for Alexa? I LOVE Alexa. She’s my side chick. She tells me when someone is in my driveway. I can have her pull up any camera. Arm and disarm my security system. Ask her questions. I can do all this with no hands! Hey, don’t judge, I have a baby. I only have so many free hands. In fact, most of my house is a smart house. Lights turn on by motion. Outside lights turn on at dusk and dim to 50% at 10:05pm (why 10:50, liked the time). Outside lights turn red when the best football team in the country is playing (CHIEEEFFFSS)! And this is all automated! New parents and busy professionals. Ain’t nobody got time for non automation.
07-26-2020, 02:24 PM
#40
So what's dumb about this subscription thing is that unlike an app, you pay big big money for the car upfront. BMW isnt selling something that is arguably cheaper. For instance, all the music streaming, tv, etc etc subscription stuff is arguably cheaper than going with cable. It's so typical with these older companies adopting tech, hey these guys do this so we should totally do this too!
As far as HOAs and such, the same people who complain about HOAs are the same people who will complain that the neighbors yard is overgrown or they park too many cars on the street. HOAs in terms of luxury upscale condos is just another way for the developers to charge rent essentially. But most HOAs, the fees go into things that everyone benefits from.
And speaking of generational things, you boomers need to understand that there isnt a job for high school grads that can afford you the ability to buy a decent house and raise a family of four with dignity on that sole income, not to mention the boomer generation are the folks running the colleges that decided to overcharge so that they can have catered lunches at the president's house. So yeah, after working 10-15 hours for peanuts so that they can get the 10 years experience all the boomers are asking for to get hired, yeah, sometimes they need to escape from their terrible lives.
Just offering a different perspective, no need to take what I said as an absolute stance.
As far as HOAs and such, the same people who complain about HOAs are the same people who will complain that the neighbors yard is overgrown or they park too many cars on the street. HOAs in terms of luxury upscale condos is just another way for the developers to charge rent essentially. But most HOAs, the fees go into things that everyone benefits from.
And speaking of generational things, you boomers need to understand that there isnt a job for high school grads that can afford you the ability to buy a decent house and raise a family of four with dignity on that sole income, not to mention the boomer generation are the folks running the colleges that decided to overcharge so that they can have catered lunches at the president's house. So yeah, after working 10-15 hours for peanuts so that they can get the 10 years experience all the boomers are asking for to get hired, yeah, sometimes they need to escape from their terrible lives.
Just offering a different perspective, no need to take what I said as an absolute stance.