Best Motoring tested 350Z against 02' S2K, e46 M3, Boxster 2.7 and R34 GT-R
10-16-2002, 08:06 PM
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The M3 actually turned the 2nd best lap time....so I doubt they purposely slowed it down to make it lose. Lets not forget that all 5 cars a driven by different people, maybe some are just better at driving certain cars. But I dont think theres anything wrong with the outcome, Skyline in a slightly wet course is going to be quicker than the rest of the rear drives....no doubt there. And the superbly balanced M3 with the second fastest lap time. No big surprises in the end.
Not only that, racing head to head on a course is hard. Your car might be faster but its hard to pass others on a tight course or even a moderately tight course. But theres definitely no doubt the M3 is faster than the S.
Johnny
Not only that, racing head to head on a course is hard. Your car might be faster but its hard to pass others on a tight course or even a moderately tight course. But theres definitely no doubt the M3 is faster than the S.
Johnny
10-16-2002, 08:20 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by DavidM
[B]3rd e46 M3 (fastest lap 1:09.40)
In that case they cannot drive ... or 'sand-bagged' in the e46 M3. You don't need to be a dirver-ace to outrun (or uot-lap) an S2000 in an e-46 M3. The e46 M3 laps about 2 sec per lap quicker (over a 60 sec lap). e46 M3 laps just as quickly as an EVO6 or a 996 Carrera.
BM is a Japanese program and they seem to have a very heavy bias towards the Japanese cars (not that that's anything wrong with that) - seems like they often 'fake' the outcome. I've seen a few of these where they 'show' the Japanese cars out-run and out-accelerate the Euro 'hotshots' ... still in a real world or in any other inndependent test it show's these BM programs to be far from reality. Still, very entertaining watching.
ps. If you're wondering where I get my numbers then I've seen
[B]3rd e46 M3 (fastest lap 1:09.40)
In that case they cannot drive ... or 'sand-bagged' in the e46 M3. You don't need to be a dirver-ace to outrun (or uot-lap) an S2000 in an e-46 M3. The e46 M3 laps about 2 sec per lap quicker (over a 60 sec lap). e46 M3 laps just as quickly as an EVO6 or a 996 Carrera.
BM is a Japanese program and they seem to have a very heavy bias towards the Japanese cars (not that that's anything wrong with that) - seems like they often 'fake' the outcome. I've seen a few of these where they 'show' the Japanese cars out-run and out-accelerate the Euro 'hotshots' ... still in a real world or in any other inndependent test it show's these BM programs to be far from reality. Still, very entertaining watching.
ps. If you're wondering where I get my numbers then I've seen
10-16-2002, 08:48 PM
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There was a previous BM video of e46 M3 clocked at 1:07.5 and the S2K was like 1:08.7 I think. That was on the same track with dry pavement. (M3 gets too much sliding on wet track)
note: on last 2 months BM, the Amuse S2K clocked 1:04.xx, and won the race (against AC Schnitzer e46, and other modified NA cars)
note: on last 2 months BM, the Amuse S2K clocked 1:04.xx, and won the race (against AC Schnitzer e46, and other modified NA cars)
10-16-2002, 09:00 PM
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I don't know about the M3, since the porky thing has incredbile understeer on turn in and way too much power once out of the apex... something I've been reading from several magazines, and they only way to really get fast lap times is to simply turn off DSC or TC and drift.
I have no idea how the Z beat the S, considering it's more like the E46, fat, porky, like the fat kid on the baseball team who's go lots of personality and energy, but in the long run can't really keep up on the field. Oh, forgot, it's the wet pavement, that's it... yeah, S lost to a CTR in the rain! A CTR! Would love to see the race on dry... the R34 would no doubt still have an incredible advantage with the ATESSA deal, but maybe the S would do better...
I have no idea how the Z beat the S, considering it's more like the E46, fat, porky, like the fat kid on the baseball team who's go lots of personality and energy, but in the long run can't really keep up on the field. Oh, forgot, it's the wet pavement, that's it... yeah, S lost to a CTR in the rain! A CTR! Would love to see the race on dry... the R34 would no doubt still have an incredible advantage with the ATESSA deal, but maybe the S would do better...
10-16-2002, 09:17 PM
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Guys, its a 5 lap sprint. One mistake or a bad start and its tough to catch up. You also have to pass, which is not the same as running a faster lap. Throw in wet weather and even more crazy stuff happens. And then there is the driver variable.
David, looks like you're quoting some numbers from Sport Auto in Germany. Those times were not done on the same day (Nurburgring and Hockenheim). Best Motoring really does a nice job of showing the cars on track and their behavior. They really don't come out saying that the car that wins is better or worse, but they do demonstrate the performance of the cars on the same track at the exact same time.
UL
David, looks like you're quoting some numbers from Sport Auto in Germany. Those times were not done on the same day (Nurburgring and Hockenheim). Best Motoring really does a nice job of showing the cars on track and their behavior. They really don't come out saying that the car that wins is better or worse, but they do demonstrate the performance of the cars on the same track at the exact same time.
UL
10-16-2002, 09:37 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by DJSang
[B]I don't know about the M3, since the porky thing has incredbile understeer on turn in and way too much power once out of the apex... something I've been reading from several magazines, and they only way to really get fast lap times is to simply turn off DSC or TC and drift.
[B]I don't know about the M3, since the porky thing has incredbile understeer on turn in and way too much power once out of the apex... something I've been reading from several magazines, and they only way to really get fast lap times is to simply turn off DSC or TC and drift.
10-17-2002, 03:27 AM
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The M3 actually turned the 2nd best lap time....so I doubt they purposely slowed it down to make it lose.
0.3sec quicker than the S2000 is what I was refering to - it's not the placing. e46 M3 is more like 2secs quicker than the S2000 over a short lap like that. And yes, it does look like they have purporsefully driven it slowely so it would loose. This is no the first time I have seen the BM crew do that. One instance that comes to mind is a race where they has cars like Civic Type-R, MX- (Miata) and Lexus IS200 (among some other lower spec cars). Also they put in there an S2000 for a good measure but it started good 200m behind the last 'qualified' car. By the end of lap one the S2000 passed everyone but the Civic Type-R. It took one lap for the S2000 to get within 2 car-legths of the Type-R Civic but then it statyed at that distance and did not 'make up' anymore ground ... the S2000 was shadowing the Civic and was no longer quicker anywhere ... on the straights, under brakes, through corners. That really hit home that BM is a mortiring version of WWF - very entertaining but far removed rom reality.
The fact that the S2000 does that well with a 2.0L 4cyl motor in a well balanced chassis in comparison to an all-out 6 cyl 300+ hp BMW coupe says more than enough about Honda's intent.
That's the thing - the S2000 is nowhere close to the e46 M3 ... whether it is on the track or in the straight line (in particular when both driven by proffesionals). e46 M3 laps only slightly slower than a Z06 - I saw the 'track' test in Road&Track a little while ago and there was less then 1sec between the two cars on their 'test track'. On some tracks e46 M3 laps quicker than EVO VI so no matter how good the S2000 is, it is nowhere close to the e46 M3 in terms of track or straighline perfromance.
...but I'm willing to bet 50something year old Gansan or Tsuychia could smoke whatever unnamed "professional race-car driver" that clocked those times.
Well it does not look like from his 46 M3 lap times ... he can barelly outpace an S2000. btw, the "professional drivers" that you're reffereing to are local 'sportscar champions' and the last being one of the quicker guys around N'ring.
I'm not surprised that the S turned out a fastest lap that was almost identical to the M3.
Fair enough, but that's not what I've seen - around Phillip Island the e46 M3 is good 5secs per lap quicker than the S2000 .... that is more of a difference that between S2000 and Renault Clio.
There was a previous BM video of e46 M3 clocked at 1:07.5 and the S2K was like 1:08.7 I think. That was on the same track with dry pavement.
That is a lot more believable compariosion of lap-times.
M3 gets too much sliding on wet track
More than the S2000? That's hard to believe as the e46 M3 is lauded as one of the better balanced cars in the world. No disrespec to the S2000 but I'd expect the gap to widen in the wet as the power difference would shine even more because the speed that the S2000 can can cary in the wet is severly limited.
One mistake or a bad start and its tough to catch up. You also have to pass, which is not the same as running a faster lap
No dissagreement there UL; though it's the lap-time that I'm focusing on.
David, looks like you're quoting some numbers from Sport Auto in Germany. Those times were not done on the same day (Nurburgring and Hockenheim).
Correct - the N'ring and H'heim times are from Sports Auto and they were not done on the same day. Though, they were done by the same driver, in the dry conditions and even the temperatures (of the road and air) were very similar. The other 'times' I listed were done on the same day, by the same driver.
Best Motoring really does a nice job of showing the cars on track and their behavior.
Yes, I agree with that and that's why I like wathcing them.
...but they do demonstrate the performance of the cars on the same track at the exact same time.
That (IMHO) they do not - as I said abave - the track-compariosions done by BM are the motoring equivalent of WWF. They seem totally rigded and more often then not dispute several other 'reputable' sources as well as any common sense.
wow, the Z pulls as fast as an E46????
If it does that the S2000 has just about the same chance against it as it has against a 996 or EVO VI.
ps. Can someone veryfy if the 46 M3 had a manual or SMG gearbox. It seems that the SMG is good 1 - 1.5 sec slower on a track than the manual. I'm just saying that from what I heard/read about it as well as from the SMG laptimes compared to the manual.
0.3sec quicker than the S2000 is what I was refering to - it's not the placing. e46 M3 is more like 2secs quicker than the S2000 over a short lap like that. And yes, it does look like they have purporsefully driven it slowely so it would loose. This is no the first time I have seen the BM crew do that. One instance that comes to mind is a race where they has cars like Civic Type-R, MX- (Miata) and Lexus IS200 (among some other lower spec cars). Also they put in there an S2000 for a good measure but it started good 200m behind the last 'qualified' car. By the end of lap one the S2000 passed everyone but the Civic Type-R. It took one lap for the S2000 to get within 2 car-legths of the Type-R Civic but then it statyed at that distance and did not 'make up' anymore ground ... the S2000 was shadowing the Civic and was no longer quicker anywhere ... on the straights, under brakes, through corners. That really hit home that BM is a mortiring version of WWF - very entertaining but far removed rom reality.
The fact that the S2000 does that well with a 2.0L 4cyl motor in a well balanced chassis in comparison to an all-out 6 cyl 300+ hp BMW coupe says more than enough about Honda's intent.
That's the thing - the S2000 is nowhere close to the e46 M3 ... whether it is on the track or in the straight line (in particular when both driven by proffesionals). e46 M3 laps only slightly slower than a Z06 - I saw the 'track' test in Road&Track a little while ago and there was less then 1sec between the two cars on their 'test track'. On some tracks e46 M3 laps quicker than EVO VI so no matter how good the S2000 is, it is nowhere close to the e46 M3 in terms of track or straighline perfromance.
...but I'm willing to bet 50something year old Gansan or Tsuychia could smoke whatever unnamed "professional race-car driver" that clocked those times.
Well it does not look like from his 46 M3 lap times ... he can barelly outpace an S2000. btw, the "professional drivers" that you're reffereing to are local 'sportscar champions' and the last being one of the quicker guys around N'ring.
I'm not surprised that the S turned out a fastest lap that was almost identical to the M3.
Fair enough, but that's not what I've seen - around Phillip Island the e46 M3 is good 5secs per lap quicker than the S2000 .... that is more of a difference that between S2000 and Renault Clio.
There was a previous BM video of e46 M3 clocked at 1:07.5 and the S2K was like 1:08.7 I think. That was on the same track with dry pavement.
That is a lot more believable compariosion of lap-times.
M3 gets too much sliding on wet track
More than the S2000? That's hard to believe as the e46 M3 is lauded as one of the better balanced cars in the world. No disrespec to the S2000 but I'd expect the gap to widen in the wet as the power difference would shine even more because the speed that the S2000 can can cary in the wet is severly limited.
One mistake or a bad start and its tough to catch up. You also have to pass, which is not the same as running a faster lap
No dissagreement there UL; though it's the lap-time that I'm focusing on.
David, looks like you're quoting some numbers from Sport Auto in Germany. Those times were not done on the same day (Nurburgring and Hockenheim).
Correct - the N'ring and H'heim times are from Sports Auto and they were not done on the same day. Though, they were done by the same driver, in the dry conditions and even the temperatures (of the road and air) were very similar. The other 'times' I listed were done on the same day, by the same driver.
Best Motoring really does a nice job of showing the cars on track and their behavior.
Yes, I agree with that and that's why I like wathcing them.
...but they do demonstrate the performance of the cars on the same track at the exact same time.
That (IMHO) they do not - as I said abave - the track-compariosions done by BM are the motoring equivalent of WWF. They seem totally rigded and more often then not dispute several other 'reputable' sources as well as any common sense.
wow, the Z pulls as fast as an E46????
If it does that the S2000 has just about the same chance against it as it has against a 996 or EVO VI.
ps. Can someone veryfy if the 46 M3 had a manual or SMG gearbox. It seems that the SMG is good 1 - 1.5 sec slower on a track than the manual. I'm just saying that from what I heard/read about it as well as from the SMG laptimes compared to the manual.