Bad built quality?? ---video---
05-14-2004, 08:56 PM
#21
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Long Island/C'ville, VA
Posts: 1,361
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That exact same thing used to happen to my parent's Sable. I think the design of the mirror itself is terrible. There is a "nub" glued onto the window, then the mirror is clicked onto this nub (rather than the stalk of the mirror being attached directly to the window). It seems to come detached on a regular basis in these cars.
Anyway, that car lasted about 65,000 miles before it died. They also had a Taurus and an LTD station wagon. All died before 90,000 miles. I think my dad was shocked to hear that cars are built to last much longer than that nowadays.
Anyway, that car lasted about 65,000 miles before it died. They also had a Taurus and an LTD station wagon. All died before 90,000 miles. I think my dad was shocked to hear that cars are built to last much longer than that nowadays.
05-14-2004, 09:16 PM
#22
I believe that all a person has to do to find out how the general population rates a manufacturer and the different vehicles they build is to look at their resale values.
In Canada for example, a Pontiac Grand Prix Gt MSRP's for right around 33,000 and a Honda Accord V6 at 32,500. In other words they are very similar in original price. One year later however, in the wholesale book, the Accord is worth approx. $6,000 more than the Grand Prix, if both are rated in excellent condition. What we are witnessing here is the market shaking down these vehicles to what is their actual value. In other words the buying public is saying they would much rather purchase a used Accord at a much higher value as experience has shown it to be a much better vehicle over the long haul. Cheaper to own maintain etc.
By the way, I would have used a Ford comparison but you do not want to know what they feel the Taurus/Sable is worth!
In Canada for example, a Pontiac Grand Prix Gt MSRP's for right around 33,000 and a Honda Accord V6 at 32,500. In other words they are very similar in original price. One year later however, in the wholesale book, the Accord is worth approx. $6,000 more than the Grand Prix, if both are rated in excellent condition. What we are witnessing here is the market shaking down these vehicles to what is their actual value. In other words the buying public is saying they would much rather purchase a used Accord at a much higher value as experience has shown it to be a much better vehicle over the long haul. Cheaper to own maintain etc.
By the way, I would have used a Ford comparison but you do not want to know what they feel the Taurus/Sable is worth!
05-15-2004, 05:30 PM
#23
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: City
Posts: 3,319
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hahahaha 
That is funny to read.
OK, what you are describing is basic economics. Consider that people chose to buy a Grand Prix GT, at the same price as an Accord, despite the fact that it costs them more to drive, since the resale of the Pontiac is much lower. If anything indicates the preference of a population, it is the amount of money they are willing to pay to drive a particular model.
Since a portion of the Canadian population prefers to pay more to drive a Pontiac Grand Prix GT than an Accord, one has to assume they value the Grand Prix more than the Accord. Honda sells roughly twice the Accords in the US than Pontiac sells Grand Prix's, so arguing that more people like the Accord than like the Grand Prix is kind of silly. But it does appear that people who buy the Grand Prix like it more than people who buy the Accord like the Accord, since Pontiac owners are willing to spend more money on their years of ownership.
That is funny to read.OK, what you are describing is basic economics. Consider that people chose to buy a Grand Prix GT, at the same price as an Accord, despite the fact that it costs them more to drive, since the resale of the Pontiac is much lower. If anything indicates the preference of a population, it is the amount of money they are willing to pay to drive a particular model.
Since a portion of the Canadian population prefers to pay more to drive a Pontiac Grand Prix GT than an Accord, one has to assume they value the Grand Prix more than the Accord. Honda sells roughly twice the Accords in the US than Pontiac sells Grand Prix's, so arguing that more people like the Accord than like the Grand Prix is kind of silly. But it does appear that people who buy the Grand Prix like it more than people who buy the Accord like the Accord, since Pontiac owners are willing to spend more money on their years of ownership.
05-16-2004, 09:59 AM
#24
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Ithaca
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by benny
I believe that all a person has to do to find out how the general population rates a manufacturer and the different vehicles they build is to look at their resale values.
I believe that all a person has to do to find out how the general population rates a manufacturer and the different vehicles they build is to look at their resale values.
05-16-2004, 11:53 AM
#25
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Delray Beach
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1)From experience, I can honestly say Ford does not make a good quality car but lately their build quality has improved. You cannot compare the build quality of a Ford to that of a VW and I picked VW because VW makes quite a few cars that are comparable to Ford's offerings in price range.
2)I could care less if a Mustang is able to run good times in the quarter mile. The Mustang is still a POS and always will be.
3)no_really, you are comparing a V8 to an inline 4. Please STFU.
4)Honda does make an excellent sports car, The S2000. The S2000, stock, handles and drives 100 times better than any Mustang. Have Car and Driver compare both cars and I would bet money on it that they would pick the S2000 over the Mustang GT.
5)The Pontiac GT is another POS. They have had the same looking interior for the past 10 years or more. Actually, most GMs have the same looking interior. The same crappy knobs and switches. The interior of a fully loaded Accord looks 100 times better than that of a Pontiac GT.
6)The reason some people are willing to pay more for a Pontiac GT only proves one of 2 things. The person either like the way the car looks over the Accord or they just do not want to drive a Japanese car. There are alot of Americans who would never drive an import because they do not like change and they believe it is more honorable to drive American. It is a shame really because they do not realize what they are missing out on.
7)Honda sells more Accords than GM sells Pontiac GTs for a number of reasons. One of them being Accords hold their value better than that of a Pontiac. Another being just a matter of preference. Obviously, more people like the way the Accord's interior and exterior look over that of the Pontiac GT otherwise there would be more GTs on the road. People don't drive cars they they don't like. Some do but that is a different story.
8) I have raced many Mustang GTs. The latest Mustangs have a 4.6 liter V8 with 260hp correct? I rape it. Not even worth my time. Mustang LX 5.0 anyone? I pulled up next to one in 4th gear, rev matched to 3rd, held the rpms close to 6000, waited for him to downshit and pulled on him by 1 car length. Another older Mustang GT with lots of horsepower and a V8 tried me. Actually, I tried him LoL. Merge onto 95, hold it in 3rd, he floors it and I raped that POS by at least 15 car lengths. I was behind him at first and he stepped on the gas before I did.
2)I could care less if a Mustang is able to run good times in the quarter mile. The Mustang is still a POS and always will be.
3)no_really, you are comparing a V8 to an inline 4. Please STFU.
4)Honda does make an excellent sports car, The S2000. The S2000, stock, handles and drives 100 times better than any Mustang. Have Car and Driver compare both cars and I would bet money on it that they would pick the S2000 over the Mustang GT.
5)The Pontiac GT is another POS. They have had the same looking interior for the past 10 years or more. Actually, most GMs have the same looking interior. The same crappy knobs and switches. The interior of a fully loaded Accord looks 100 times better than that of a Pontiac GT.
6)The reason some people are willing to pay more for a Pontiac GT only proves one of 2 things. The person either like the way the car looks over the Accord or they just do not want to drive a Japanese car. There are alot of Americans who would never drive an import because they do not like change and they believe it is more honorable to drive American. It is a shame really because they do not realize what they are missing out on.
7)Honda sells more Accords than GM sells Pontiac GTs for a number of reasons. One of them being Accords hold their value better than that of a Pontiac. Another being just a matter of preference. Obviously, more people like the way the Accord's interior and exterior look over that of the Pontiac GT otherwise there would be more GTs on the road. People don't drive cars they they don't like. Some do but that is a different story.
8) I have raced many Mustang GTs. The latest Mustangs have a 4.6 liter V8 with 260hp correct? I rape it. Not even worth my time. Mustang LX 5.0 anyone? I pulled up next to one in 4th gear, rev matched to 3rd, held the rpms close to 6000, waited for him to downshit and pulled on him by 1 car length. Another older Mustang GT with lots of horsepower and a V8 tried me. Actually, I tried him LoL. Merge onto 95, hold it in 3rd, he floors it and I raped that POS by at least 15 car lengths. I was behind him at first and he stepped on the gas before I did.
05-16-2004, 03:32 PM
#26
No-really you slay me.
The reason why people buy the Grand Prix over the Accord generally is because they are buyers of NA product and in most cases have not looked at the Accord. If Honda has one negative thing going for them in Canada it is the perception that they are a lot more expensive then they really are. These people tend to not even shop the imports.
Then 3 or 4 years later when it is time to trade, they are extremely pissed off at what the big three offer in trade value and so they end up shopping the imports hoping someone will show them something for their depreciating pos.
At that point a Honda salesperson will do a comparison and show them what situation they would now be in if they had originally purchased a V6 Accord. Voila!!!
The lights go on and all of a sudden somebody is at home!
For you to assume that these people bought the Pontiac at a higher price because they thought it a better value and were more willing to accept the terrible trade in value is assinine.
Besides basic economics will teach you that the market will always dictate the price. Ask what you want. There will always be someone dumb enough to over pay. Then the market will put a price on the article when it comes back available.
The reason why people buy the Grand Prix over the Accord generally is because they are buyers of NA product and in most cases have not looked at the Accord. If Honda has one negative thing going for them in Canada it is the perception that they are a lot more expensive then they really are. These people tend to not even shop the imports.
Then 3 or 4 years later when it is time to trade, they are extremely pissed off at what the big three offer in trade value and so they end up shopping the imports hoping someone will show them something for their depreciating pos.
At that point a Honda salesperson will do a comparison and show them what situation they would now be in if they had originally purchased a V6 Accord. Voila!!!
The lights go on and all of a sudden somebody is at home!
For you to assume that these people bought the Pontiac at a higher price because they thought it a better value and were more willing to accept the terrible trade in value is assinine.
Besides basic economics will teach you that the market will always dictate the price. Ask what you want. There will always be someone dumb enough to over pay. Then the market will put a price on the article when it comes back available.
05-17-2004, 12:28 PM
#27
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: City
Posts: 3,319
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, I guess if the only explanation for the facts that is acceptable to you is that buyers of new domestic cars are uninformed idiots, but buyers of used domestic cars are well-informed, savvy buyers, and buyers of new and used Japanese cars are intelligent and knowledgeable, I just have to guess you bought a Japanese car.
Is it remotely possible that personal preference plays any part in the car buying process? Annual surveys show decisively that American offerings are as good as or better than any in the world. This tired assertion that all domestic autos are crap is just racist propaganda.
The market doesn't "dictate" prices. Companies may adjust their prices to maximize their earnings potential, but they need to ask enough to cover costs. And to quote an economist, "the value of something is whatever we are (just) willing to give up for it." Also, "the value of goods (to you) depends not only on the nature of the goods and your preferences but also on how much of those goods you have." In addition, "the price (or cost) of a good is the amount of something else you must give up to get it."
(http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/Pri..._Chapter_3.html)
So we can see that the value of a particular car to you is dependent on your personal preferences. And cost is not defined as "value." You buy something because the cost is less than or equal to the value of the item to you, but that in no way mandates that cost equal value, since value is largely subjective.
There is a concept in economics called a "Giffen good." That is a good (product) that is less desirable as it's price falls. It appears that a used Grand Prix GT is a Giffen good for you. You somehow see it as less desirable because the cost of the item has decreased. Most people would see it the other way - the Pontiac Grand Prix GT is a good buy, as it's cost is lower than the price of similar cars in the market, and therefore it is a better value for the money.
The reasons behind a lower price for used Grand Prix GT's versus Accords are not necessarily obvious. It may be that people who like the characteristics of a Grand Prix also prefer the inferred status of a new car. Buyers who prefer the characteristics of Accords perhaps cannot afford the depreciation hit of a Grand Prix, yet don't mind tying up tens of thousands of dollars in a depreciating investment.
It could be that Pontiac owners are offered better incentives at trade-in time than Honda dealers offer Accord owners, or GM may offer better financing terms on new cars. If the buyer of a Pontiac can get a new Grand Prix GT for a total cost (including financing) that is more attractive when compared to the total cost of financing a used one, balanced against the perceived values of new and used Grand Prix GT's, then the demand for used Grand Prix GT's is going to fall. While the demand has fallen, the quality of the car has not changed. Circumstances not related to the merits of the vehicle have influenced demand.
When car dealers have cars they have not sold in a period of time, or if they have too many to fit on their lot, they either discount them heavily or sell them at auction for less than retail. Discounting doesn't affect their quality at all, but it may influence perceived value, re: the
Is it remotely possible that personal preference plays any part in the car buying process? Annual surveys show decisively that American offerings are as good as or better than any in the world. This tired assertion that all domestic autos are crap is just racist propaganda.
The market doesn't "dictate" prices. Companies may adjust their prices to maximize their earnings potential, but they need to ask enough to cover costs. And to quote an economist, "the value of something is whatever we are (just) willing to give up for it." Also, "the value of goods (to you) depends not only on the nature of the goods and your preferences but also on how much of those goods you have." In addition, "the price (or cost) of a good is the amount of something else you must give up to get it."
(http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/Pri..._Chapter_3.html)
So we can see that the value of a particular car to you is dependent on your personal preferences. And cost is not defined as "value." You buy something because the cost is less than or equal to the value of the item to you, but that in no way mandates that cost equal value, since value is largely subjective.
There is a concept in economics called a "Giffen good." That is a good (product) that is less desirable as it's price falls. It appears that a used Grand Prix GT is a Giffen good for you. You somehow see it as less desirable because the cost of the item has decreased. Most people would see it the other way - the Pontiac Grand Prix GT is a good buy, as it's cost is lower than the price of similar cars in the market, and therefore it is a better value for the money.
The reasons behind a lower price for used Grand Prix GT's versus Accords are not necessarily obvious. It may be that people who like the characteristics of a Grand Prix also prefer the inferred status of a new car. Buyers who prefer the characteristics of Accords perhaps cannot afford the depreciation hit of a Grand Prix, yet don't mind tying up tens of thousands of dollars in a depreciating investment.
It could be that Pontiac owners are offered better incentives at trade-in time than Honda dealers offer Accord owners, or GM may offer better financing terms on new cars. If the buyer of a Pontiac can get a new Grand Prix GT for a total cost (including financing) that is more attractive when compared to the total cost of financing a used one, balanced against the perceived values of new and used Grand Prix GT's, then the demand for used Grand Prix GT's is going to fall. While the demand has fallen, the quality of the car has not changed. Circumstances not related to the merits of the vehicle have influenced demand.
When car dealers have cars they have not sold in a period of time, or if they have too many to fit on their lot, they either discount them heavily or sell them at auction for less than retail. Discounting doesn't affect their quality at all, but it may influence perceived value, re: the
05-17-2004, 12:47 PM
#28
I also happen to own a Chrysler PT Cruiser. It's one helluva car. It is 2 year newer than my S2000 and has caught up in mileage. Never a problem with it either. If I were in the market for a new car now, I'd give a Turbo PT GT a real serious look. No prejudice here.
05-17-2004, 06:05 PM
#29
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Wayne
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have raced many Mustang GTs. The latest Mustangs have a 4.6 liter V8 with 260hp correct? I rape it. Not even worth my time. Mustang LX 5.0 anyone? I pulled up next to one in 4th gear, rev matched to 3rd, held the rpms close to 6000, waited for him to downshit and pulled on him by 1 car length. Another older Mustang GT with lots of horsepower and a V8 tried me. Actually, I tried him LoL. Merge onto 95, hold it in 3rd, he floors it and I raped that POS by at least 15 car lengths. I was behind him at first and he stepped on the gas before I did
I found your comment " older mustang with a lots of horsepower " quite funny!! how much is lots of hp? Considering even the old 5.0s with a gear change and some boltons would give you a quite a run for your money.
05-17-2004, 06:27 PM
#30
Wow!
No really, I just have to guess you buy NA! Why else would you write a frickin novel length statement to explain to, "your satisfaction," why the NA manufacturers are losing market share every year to import makes when their "offerings are as good as or better than any in the world?" Do you really credit the buying public with such a low level of intelligence?
The market doesn't dictate prices!!! I can only assume you have been book taught theory as opposed to learning reality. Wake up to a public that is increasingly demanding value for their dollar.
To learn more, please move to chapter 4 in your book, supply and demand.
"Since Grand Prix GT's have a lower resale price than Accords, it is clear they do not require more investment by the dealer in preparation for resale". Go talk to your local mechanic before you make such a rediculous assumption!
Company policy does affect resale prices. I will give you that. To help you buy that new Pontiac with 0% and huge cashback, GM kindly spins you around and takes the same amount of discount or more out of your wallet come trade in time. You see, they found out it was cheaper to pass the loss on to you now, then to have to take the hit themselves at the auction later when your lease came due!
Finally. I find the only real negative comments on this site are from the misinformed element who just can't stomach the fact that a non NA manufacturer can build a better car. This by the way, is the same head in the sand attitude that put the big three in the current position they are in.
Also, I love it when someone pulls the prejudice card.
It reminds me so much of the neighbourhood whiner who always took his ball back and went home!
No really, I just have to guess you buy NA! Why else would you write a frickin novel length statement to explain to, "your satisfaction," why the NA manufacturers are losing market share every year to import makes when their "offerings are as good as or better than any in the world?" Do you really credit the buying public with such a low level of intelligence?
The market doesn't dictate prices!!! I can only assume you have been book taught theory as opposed to learning reality. Wake up to a public that is increasingly demanding value for their dollar.
To learn more, please move to chapter 4 in your book, supply and demand.
"Since Grand Prix GT's have a lower resale price than Accords, it is clear they do not require more investment by the dealer in preparation for resale". Go talk to your local mechanic before you make such a rediculous assumption!
Company policy does affect resale prices. I will give you that. To help you buy that new Pontiac with 0% and huge cashback, GM kindly spins you around and takes the same amount of discount or more out of your wallet come trade in time. You see, they found out it was cheaper to pass the loss on to you now, then to have to take the hit themselves at the auction later when your lease came due!
Finally. I find the only real negative comments on this site are from the misinformed element who just can't stomach the fact that a non NA manufacturer can build a better car. This by the way, is the same head in the sand attitude that put the big three in the current position they are in.
Also, I love it when someone pulls the prejudice card.
It reminds me so much of the neighbourhood whiner who always took his ball back and went home!