s.hasan546

His comment was S2000 vs Miata in 1999 I think. He overstated things a bit but his point still holds true, the S2000 was a much more expensive car than the miata when it came out. 32k vs 20k (base), 23k (LE), or at most 25k (SE). That's a premium of 28%-60% for the S2000 in 1999 (never mind dealer markups at the time).
[/quote]

The price was based on what my parents paid for theirs back then. They bought one off the floor, and it was marked up to that number (back in 2000). If you think the new Miata will not be marked up, you're kidding yourself.

But even without a markup, $32,000 is a much larger number than $20,000, especially in 1999-2000.
[/quote]

I'm not kidding myself. Anyone who pays a markup on any car is an idiot or too rich or should be buying a GT3 rs 4.0

Ricky_Flowers_

His comment was S2000 vs Miata in 1999 I think. He overstated things a bit but his point still holds true, the S2000 was a much more expensive car than the miata when it came out. 32k vs 20k (base), 23k (LE), or at most 25k (SE). That's a premium of 28%-60% for the S2000 in 1999 (never mind dealer markups at the time).
[/quote]

The price was based on what my parents paid for theirs back then. They bought one off the floor, and it was marked up to that number (back in 2000). If you think the new Miata will not be marked up, you're kidding yourself.

But even without a markup, $32,000 is a much larger number than $20,000, especially in 1999-2000.
[/quote]

I'm not kidding myself. Anyone who pays a markup on any car is an idiot or too rich or should be buying a GT3 rs 4.0
[/quote]

Well that's a great story.

Regardless, the point still stands: when you compare a $32,000 and a $20,000, you will more than likely find a proportional difference in performance in respect to price. This is just common sense, which appears to not be so common in this thread.

s.hasan546

His comment was S2000 vs Miata in 1999 I think. He overstated things a bit but his point still holds true, the S2000 was a much more expensive car than the miata when it came out. 32k vs 20k (base), 23k (LE), or at most 25k (SE). That's a premium of 28%-60% for the S2000 in 1999 (never mind dealer markups at the time).
[/quote]

The price was based on what my parents paid for theirs back then. They bought one off the floor, and it was marked up to that number (back in 2000). If you think the new Miata will not be marked up, you're kidding yourself.

But even without a markup, $32,000 is a much larger number than $20,000, especially in 1999-2000.
[/quote]

I'm not kidding myself. Anyone who pays a markup on any car is an idiot or too rich or should be buying a GT3 rs 4.0
[/quote]

Well that's a great story.

Regardless, the point still stands: when you compare a $32,000 and a $20,000, you will more than likely find a proportional difference in performance in respect to price. This is just common sense, which appears to not be so common in this thread.
[/quote]

And what your failing to understand is that as technology becomes more efficient manufacturers can increase the power at the same or slightly increased price. So the miata very well might be able to compete with the s2000 at a cheaper price point now. We won't know until the specs are released. Until than this is all speculation obviously.

Ricky_Flowers_

His comment was S2000 vs Miata in 1999 I think. He overstated things a bit but his point still holds true, the S2000 was a much more expensive car than the miata when it came out. 32k vs 20k (base), 23k (LE), or at most 25k (SE). That's a premium of 28%-60% for the S2000 in 1999 (never mind dealer markups at the time).
[/quote]

The price was based on what my parents paid for theirs back then. They bought one off the floor, and it was marked up to that number (back in 2000). If you think the new Miata will not be marked up, you're kidding yourself.

But even without a markup, $32,000 is a much larger number than $20,000, especially in 1999-2000.
[/quote]

I'm not kidding myself. Anyone who pays a markup on any car is an idiot or too rich or should be buying a GT3 rs 4.0
[/quote]

Well that's a great story.

Regardless, the point still stands: when you compare a $32,000 and a $20,000, you will more than likely find a proportional difference in performance in respect to price. This is just common sense, which appears to not be so common in this thread.
[/quote]

And what your failing to understand is that as technology becomes more efficient manufacturers can increase the power at the same or slightly increased price. So the miata very well might be able to compete with the s2000 at a cheaper price point now. We won't know until the specs are released. Until than this is all speculation obviously.
[/quote]

You're absolutely right, but I don't think Mazda is trying to make an "S2000" competitor, nor has it ever. The appeal of the Miata/MX-5 has always been low weight, low power, excellent and fun handling at a relatively low price. As manufacturers move towards a more "efficiency over everything" approach to build cars, HP and TQ numbers will begin to take a back seat to weight loss. I'm honestly very happy that Mazda didn't (speculating of course here) go over 170/180hp, as it would, in my opinion, ruin the appeal of the base car.

Remember, this car will be in the 20-25k price range new. There's plenty of room there to slot in a turbocharged version down the road, if Mazda chooses, and the market is definitely there now more than it was almost 9 years ago when the NC was released.

I absolutely did not fail to understand anything you said, I just happen to disagree with you.

billios996

WolfpackS2k

Ricky Flowers, you really need to stop "taking liberties" with cars prices, lol. This Miata won't be $20-25k. We should be so lucky. Given that the 2014 MIata starts at a little over $24k I think we'll be lucky if they keep the new base price below $25k.

Furthermore, stating that an S2000 costs $36k because that's what you parents paid is you being intentionally misleading. You were trying to exaggerate numbers to support your argument. I could have countered and said a friend of mine bought one brand new in 2002 for $29k but then I would be disingenuous. Referring to MSRP is the only way to keep things honest.

Anyway, I guarantee you'll be able to buy the new Miata at MSRP. The FRS/BRZ was hyped big time and you could buy that at MSRP from the very beginning. Does that mean there won't be some idiot out there that pays markup? No, but we don't need to waste our time contemplating what ill-informed people are doing (btw I'm not implying your parents are less than intelligent).

I'm with s.hasan546 here.

Ricky_Flowers_

A few things:

I'm going off of memory on 100% of this, and not doing any research. This is a discussion, and if I'm wrong on these numbers, sorry. I'm not winning a trophy, you're not winning a trophy, no gold stars will be handed out, etc.

After looking everything up (apparently, what you felt I should have done initially) the MSRP for a base Miata in 2000 was $20,545. The MSRP for the same year Honda S2000 was $32,000. That car cost, brand new at introduction, 36% more than the same year base model Miata.

Let's compare horsepower figures:

Honda S2000: 240 HP
Mazda Miata (base): 140 HP

That is a 42% increase in power.

This bump in power could be attributed to a few things: bigger budget for engine development, and a more expensive engine that was designed from scratch for the S2000. Honda threw its engineering might at producing the best road car engine it could for the platform, and the rest is history.

Mazda, on the other hand, continued to put the same engine that it had began producing in 1989. Although the engine was incrementally updated in that time, it was based on the original 80's technology and engineering principles of the first iteration of the BP engine.

These cars, back then, were on two entirely different levels in terms of engine performance and price.

Now is where it starts to get kinda fuzzy. Mazda produced the MZR engine for the NC and the rest of it's four-cylinder line up. The engine, although discontinued by Mazda, is still being made by Ford. It was designed to be a responsive, economical four-cylinder engine to be shared across the Mazda brand in anything from the MX-5 to the 3/6 sedan, even the 5 wagon and in turbocharged iteration the Mazdaspeed3 and CX-7. This is in contrast to the F-series in that it was designed with eking out as much horsepower from a 2-liter engine, economy and torque be damned. It's a completely different, and much more exotic animal than any engine Mazda will ever put in a Miata.

The new Skyactiv engines will still make upwards of 160 hp (this engine in a Mazda 3 makes 184 in base trim) while still returning impressive fuel economy (28/38 in that same 3). This increase in efficiency is remarkable in that they are making so much power out of a truly mass-produced engine.

I'm willing to eat my own words if I'm wrong, but I cannot see them charging more than $26,000 (base model) for this car. Even if they do, it's still shouldn't be too surprising, considering the price of new cars has been going up for years now, especially sports cars. Imagine how much a new S2000 would cost. Do you think it would still be $32,000 dollars, new? Probably not, right? This hypothetical argument of performance-per-dollar is always incredibly difficult to nail down when comparing a used car (priced as a new one) to a new car.

Regardless of how much it costs, I have every reason to believe it will be a great little sports car. Anyone who has ever owned and driven Miatas (I work on them every day) knows that it's more than the sum of its parts, and is an excellent drivers car regardless of power. I still don't understand why S2000 owners feel the need to justify their decision to buy one over a Miata, when their car is, in essence, almost 15 years old now, and Mazda is still making these. If horsepower was such an issue, you would have bought a Corvette, no?

The REAL argument here is whether this car, new, is a better buy than a used S2000 of the same price. For $26,000 you could buy a really nice '08 AP2, and for the price of an optioned-up MX-5 you could reasonably expect to be able to afford a really nice CR. Obviously, I took the route of buying a used car (an AP1) instead of buying a new car, even though I could have afforded one. If I had to do it all over again, I would have, but I would also have bought a used Miata and turbocharged it, as every time I get on track they seem to pass me....

WolfpackS2k

Fantastic post good sir

I actually wasn't part of the group that was comparing the two vehicles. If I were to buy a new (to me) 2 seat roadster today I would probably end up with an S2000...again, haha. Though I would definitely go test drive the new Miata. Heck I'll probably do that next year anyway.

As an aside, if Honda built a carbon copy of the S2000 today (same size, weight, performance, etc) my answer is no, I do not believe it would cost an absurd amount. Less than $40k in other words....closer to $35k IMO.

Ricky_Flowers_

I respectfully disagree! I would put the price of a new S2XXX at around 42-45k, but then again Honda would probably shove batteries and electric motors and lcds and other BS in there....

WolfpackS2k

Well think about it this way. To get 240 hp out of a 2.0 liter engine you wouldn't need a fancy bespoke engine. You could just use the K20. And if Mazda can make a 2300lb 185hp roadster for $25k I see no reason Honda couldn't produce a 2800lb 240hp roadster today for around $35k.