JonBoy

A car that has 600+ hp vs a car with 400+ hp is going have to be significantly stronger and stiffer, assuming nothing else changes. Add in the extra grip and downforce of the McLaren to that increase in power and torque (616 hp and 443 ft-lbs vs 420 hp and 390 ft-lbs) and you'll find it's a car that has to be SIGNIFICANTLY stronger. It also has all the extra plumbing and cooling required for a turbo motor, which adds weight. Normally aspirated, with the same 600 hp, would probably reduce the weight of the McLaren by 50-100 lbs. The transmission, differential and axles all have to be stronger, especially since the McLaren is so much more focused and hardcore. The chassis has to be significantly stronger to handle the higher forces the car experiences. The cooling system has to be more robust, to handle the higher performance envelope of the car and the higher power output.

Seriously, how much structural work have you done in your life? I'm talking about real engineering design work, not building a patio in the back of your yard. I started with the FSAE team in university (full ground-up design of the chassis and suspension and cooling system) and went into structural design (among other things) as a professional. It's all about focus and intent. WILL Ford drop the weight that drastically? Probably not. Could they do it? I believe they could come a lot closer than you think is possible. Porsche makes a sub-3100 lb 400+ hp car. I'm pretty sure that Ford could get within 200 or 300 lbs of that if they shrunk the car and applied some of their famous engineering power to it.

In the end, I said I had HIGH HOPES for this car, not high EXPECTATIONS. Stop shattering my dreams.

Slithr

A car that has 600+ hp vs a car with 400+ hp is going have to be significantly stronger and stiffer, assuming nothing else changes. Add in the extra grip and downforce of the McLaren to that increase in power and torque (616 hp and 443 ft-lbs vs 420 hp and 390 ft-lbs) and you'll find it's a car that has to be SIGNIFICANTLY stronger. It also has all the extra plumbing and cooling required for a turbo motor, which adds weight. Normally aspirated, with the same 600 hp, would probably reduce the weight of the McLaren by 50-100 lbs. The transmission, differential and axles all have to be stronger, especially since the McLaren is so much more focused and hardcore. The chassis has to be significantly stronger to handle the higher forces the car experiences. The cooling system has to be more robust, to handle the higher performance envelope of the car and the higher power output.

Seriously, how much structural work have you done in your life? I'm talking about real engineering design work, not building a patio in the back of your yard. I started with the FSAE team in university (full ground-up design of the chassis and suspension and cooling system) and went into structural design (among other things) as a professional. It's all about focus and intent. WILL Ford drop the weight that drastically? Probably not. Could they do it? I believe they could come a lot closer than you think is possible. Porsche makes a sub-3100 lb 400+ hp car. I'm pretty sure that Ford could get within 200 or 300 lbs of that if they shrunk the car and applied some of their famous engineering power to it.

In the end, I said I had HIGH HOPES for this car, not high EXPECTATIONS. Stop shattering my dreams.
[/quote]
I'm not saying it can't be done. It can for significantly more money and significantly less room in the car, passenger compartment, trunk, etc. The 911 and McLaren are not supported by a $20k entry level vehicle.

I would like to see a car more in scale to the 1966 model. Which would shrink the car significantly, particularly in width. Even then, once you strengthen it to take the weight/power of the drive train, add all of the mandatory safety and emission parts, throw in all of the electronic goodies, add the size necessary to give good crash results as well as conforming to European pedestrian safety regs (may account for the bulbous front end). It's hard to imagine getting to 3,300 lbs. with a usable back seat, reasonably sized trunk, etc. Heck, the new F Type v6 is over 3,500 lbs.

Once you start using carbon fiber tubs and hydro-formed aluminum subframes, it's hard to squeeze that v6 car into the low $20k price bracket.

JonBoy

You're missing a few things:

1. Mustang has 100K sales per year. McLaren has a few thousand. Porsche has 20K. So, at worst, the Mustang has 5x the sales to help spread out the additional costs, which means it has a lot more than a $20K base vehicle supporting it. The chassis is somewhat bespoke but the drivetrain is not.

2. Mustang shares its V8 with the best-selling vehicle in North America (645K F-150s sold in 2012), which also allows it to spread manufacturing costs for the drivetrain across a very wide base. Even if only 100K F-150s are sold with the 5.0L motor, it's still a big addition to the manufacturing base.

With volume comes lower costs and improved efficiency in significant percentages.

That said, I agree with you that they should shrink it a bit, which will help reduce the weight by a moderate amount. Even a few inches all around could add up to 100 lbs. Cutting out the massive wheels/tires and designing the car around 17s/18s would help significantly and also reduce your brake size requirements. The car IS big right now and it's not really required to be so large.

TheDonEffect

Well to compare apples to apples here, the FRS and Porsche both fall into more of an extreme category, both cars have a more extreme approach serving a more niche clientele. So you can argue that it's semantics, but it's more ignorant to say that it's a fair comparison. A more "fair" comparison would be the immediate competition, most of which have bigger budgets and serve a higher market class not to mention trying to achieve the same goal and appealing the same type of driver, but claiming to be premium, this being the bmw 3 series, and when compared to that car the mustang is not heavy. The mustang isnt trying to set beat the BRZ and porsches in visceral driving experience through handling, and to use those cars as a benchmark is just illinformed. Can we wish that it did? Sure, I'd love to see a 30K with 400+hp, rwd, IRS, useable backseats, and weigh less than a vette, ooo and put a H on the hood too right?
However, the only argument that I can come up with that Ford can reasonably make the car lighter is the Hyundai Genesis Coupe, as the car is lighter and can house a V8 (just compare the V6 to V6 weights between the gen coupe and mustang), but it can reasonably be argued that with a V8 the weight will go up, and honestly we are splitting hairs as the weight difference isn't that dramatic.
I do see alot of area where ford can shed some weight, the car just has massive expanses of sheet metal and really isnt more practical than a 3 series, but their weights are comparable.
In any rate, I'd like to see a lighter and small stang, but I'd also like to see a turbo 86.
Considering the 3 series and 1 series, I think ford's weight is reasonable.

Zoidberg

It sounds like Ford is doing very little to the motor. In that case all of the attention is focused on the chassis redesign. As many stated above, the current car is pretty impressive for what it is. With a well tuned chassis and suspension, it can be an exceptional car.

Smaller and lighter weight will definitely help what it lacks in terms of feel, but those aren't the only indicators of a well designed chassis. A current M3 weighs over 3700 lbs (E46 M3 weighed 3400). Most of us, even though we prefer small sports cars, can say an M3 is fun to drive. So if the Mustang engineers can take advantage of this opportunity and get the chassis dynamics right, then they sure have a winner for $30k.

A BRZ turbo would make for some awesome competition in that price range.

TheDonEffect

The rumors around the coyote is that it's going to get fuel injection, apparently the engine is designed to get it, I remember reading a while back that there's a spot on the head that's clearly a blank spot for the injector. Dunno how I feel about that to be honest.

ElTianti

You mean direct injection.

TheDonEffect

Oh sorry, long day, lol, totally spaced on that.

ElTianti

Regarding the coyote motor going DI, the HP estimates I've read in the 460 neighborhood, which would be prodigious output for a 30K car.

The internets also claims the next Cobra/GT500/SVT will be NA due to EU pedestrian safety regs not allowing for sufficient hood clearance for a supercharger. It makes me think the current GT500 could be a muscle car high water mark since nobody makes a 600+hp NA V8, it's hard to imagine Ford will either.

Mr.E.G.

I think Jonboy may be on to something with his 911 and Mustang comparison. I just saw a 991 911 parked next to a current gen Mustang and I was surprised to see that they are fairly similar in size. Sure, their respective dimensions were different but they had fairly similar "volume" if you will. The 911 is 95% the size of the Mustang, I'd guess.