2011 M3 ZCP vs 2011 GT
08-26-2010, 08:18 AM
#53
[QUOTE=Chris S,Aug 25 2010, 01:33 PM]That's a really, really dumb statement.
08-26-2010, 08:52 AM
#55
Originally Posted by TheDonEffect,Aug 26 2010, 10:18 AM
You can't necessarily say it's a dumb statement, cuz like you said BMW primarily nailed the subjective stuff. To be honest, the vast majority of BMW drivers can't articulate their own opinion about the car, only reading, confirming, and reciting what others have said (same could pretty much be said about really any car to be honest). I mean people on these boards people used to love saying the E46 interior was awesome until it started being challenged by others.
Thing about subjective stuff is that it can sway with the public perception, so like I said, let's stop beating aroung the bush, what are you paying for? But does public perception equate to fact? Perhaps you should ask Toyota.
I completely understand that a purchase, particularly a purchase that's considered to be the second most important purchase in most households, is a very personal and subjective experience, and I wouldn't fault anyone for using their own opinion when making their own choice. And for me, given the choice, all things equal, I'd choose a BMW cuz hell, I have a soft spot for them too.
But going back to what you said, you're right, numbers isn't everything when it comes to owner satisfaction, so if it isn't the numbers what is it? Subjective stuff, for one prestige/rarity/exclusivity, the reassurance of buying something popular, etc, aka badge whoring or brand snobbing.
Of course a person has to decide for themselves if it's worth it, I merely pose the question of what are you paying double for, because it isn't the numbers. Perhaps exposing these truths is uncomfortable, like telling Rolex owners their watch prices were inflated during the late 80s and early 90s into what they are today Rolex figured out they could charge much more for the same watch because of brand snobbing consumers despite it actually costing less (precious metal models aside of course) to produce due to manufacturing advancements.
Thing about subjective stuff is that it can sway with the public perception, so like I said, let's stop beating aroung the bush, what are you paying for? But does public perception equate to fact? Perhaps you should ask Toyota.
I completely understand that a purchase, particularly a purchase that's considered to be the second most important purchase in most households, is a very personal and subjective experience, and I wouldn't fault anyone for using their own opinion when making their own choice. And for me, given the choice, all things equal, I'd choose a BMW cuz hell, I have a soft spot for them too.
But going back to what you said, you're right, numbers isn't everything when it comes to owner satisfaction, so if it isn't the numbers what is it? Subjective stuff, for one prestige/rarity/exclusivity, the reassurance of buying something popular, etc, aka badge whoring or brand snobbing.
Of course a person has to decide for themselves if it's worth it, I merely pose the question of what are you paying double for, because it isn't the numbers. Perhaps exposing these truths is uncomfortable, like telling Rolex owners their watch prices were inflated during the late 80s and early 90s into what they are today Rolex figured out they could charge much more for the same watch because of brand snobbing consumers despite it actually costing less (precious metal models aside of course) to produce due to manufacturing advancements.
I don't really buy the comparison w/ Rolex watches, b/c they do exactly what much lower priced watches do, ex. that they look nicer. Or maybe I don't understand since I'm not a watch snob, as I rarely wear one.
08-26-2010, 09:05 AM
#57
Originally Posted by Onehots2k,Aug 25 2010, 01:53 PM
Okay, lets not beat around the bush. Some cars BMW makes cater to those only interested in the emblem. Who cares? Everything is about marketing and how much the brand/person is worth. Why does Oprah Winfrey make 380million a year? Society dictates that she can command that much through various outlets. She wont be making that much forever. BMW will have to slash prices like crazy once society dictates they aren't worth it. Look at Range Rover. Nobody really pays 90k for the big boy for it to be worth 25-30k less in a year and half. Same with the S class benz.
With BMW you get a car that does everything well. Look at the numbers on a 328i. Its still impressive for what it is. Provides great feel, is not heavy, matches an S2k in braking, etc. etc. It only gets amplified the higher you go. Seriously, I've read obscure publications that oooohhh and ahhhhh over the 3er franchise. BMW would have to have department that pays off 20+ editors and 12+ magazines regularly.
You have to drive one for a few days, Don. I see what you're saying but I don't think you've ever experienced the intangibles. I'm not saying with the salesman in the car and you not having a clue what test drive route you'll be on. I'm talking getting real familiar. Going a couple blocks in a Cayman S probably wont do squat for me. The driving experience with the M is still unique to its direct competitors. I'm just super impressed the MGT is where its at by the numbers.
Look at the freakin resale numbers on the M3. You'll find a handful at less than 45k. The car has been out for three years. You're a person that appreciates value you can see in terms of automobiles. I think I've figured that out. BMW will never be about that type of value. Neither will Porsche.
With BMW you get a car that does everything well. Look at the numbers on a 328i. Its still impressive for what it is. Provides great feel, is not heavy, matches an S2k in braking, etc. etc. It only gets amplified the higher you go. Seriously, I've read obscure publications that oooohhh and ahhhhh over the 3er franchise. BMW would have to have department that pays off 20+ editors and 12+ magazines regularly.
You have to drive one for a few days, Don. I see what you're saying but I don't think you've ever experienced the intangibles. I'm not saying with the salesman in the car and you not having a clue what test drive route you'll be on. I'm talking getting real familiar. Going a couple blocks in a Cayman S probably wont do squat for me. The driving experience with the M is still unique to its direct competitors. I'm just super impressed the MGT is where its at by the numbers.
Look at the freakin resale numbers on the M3. You'll find a handful at less than 45k. The car has been out for three years. You're a person that appreciates value you can see in terms of automobiles. I think I've figured that out. BMW will never be about that type of value. Neither will Porsche.
And Barry, I have driven my share of BMWs, no I haven't owned one so can't say I have the seat time, but that's a bunk argument because that would suggest that only owners of any car can have a true opinion, so therefore everyone's opinion about any car is now discreditted; a lot of the time the people from the outside looking in will havea better opinion. That said, I know owners and have driven their cars so I have access to them, they;re fantastic cars. It's funny, and I'm not saying you or Chris did this, but the moment you start being critical with a car, people jump to the conclusion that you hate it and you're a zomg fanboi of whatever opposing force, and that's not the case at all. They drive great, even seriously considered getting an E46 M3 (still considering in fact, trying to convince myself that the ownership costs aren't too bad per my friends... then I really probe them and find out some overlooked truths, lol). But I've also driven a lot of other cars, the 370Z comes to mind, what a fantastic car, offers alot of what the BMW offers at a franction of the cost (and no back seat sigh), but reliability is still questionable. I've also driven an 06 mustang GT on the way home from buying my S2000 (bro wanted to) and was blown away by it, mostly because my expectations were so low, and driven one again recently and it still impresses me, I could only imagine what this 5.0 will do.
Anyway, still love the m3, but let's call it what it is, it's the Apple of cars, does alot of things great, and offers a great user experience, but we're now in the days where we have Windows 7, powerful PCs, Zune HDs, etc. I still grudginly want an iPad though.
Btw, I think you and I are the only two people on these boards who still have a large soft spot for the 135i.
08-26-2010, 09:08 AM
#58
Originally Posted by Chris S,Aug 26 2010, 08:52 AM
I never claimed BMW is as good a value as most American and Japanese cars, as it's not. I'd love to have a viable M3 alternative that had similar traits, minus the brand snobbery, for $20K less. But you know what, there really isn't anything at a lower price point that effectively competes IMO. The IS-F comes close, but it's lacking in a few areas that matter to me. I have an irrational weak spot for the '12 Boss 302, and although I suspect it may outperform the M3 at a lower price point, it's not going to suffice as a family car. Evo and STI are hampered by limited trunk and rear seat space, respectively.
I don't really buy the comparison w/ Rolex watches, b/c they do exactly what much lower priced watches do, ex. that they look nicer. Or maybe I don't understand since I'm not a watch snob, as I rarely wear one.
I don't really buy the comparison w/ Rolex watches, b/c they do exactly what much lower priced watches do, ex. that they look nicer. Or maybe I don't understand since I'm not a watch snob, as I rarely wear one.
As far as watches go, the fundamentally different thing about high end luxury watches is that they actually hold value and can be used as a heirloom, whereas casios can't. Rolexes are a whole discussion on their own. I'm not a watch snob, I just love engineering and craftsmanship, I rock an automatic power reserve fossil or a cell phone, lol.
08-26-2010, 09:17 AM
#59
One of my good friends here in Raleigh recently bought a new MGT 5.0. It's nice looking but I haven't ridden in it with him. And knowing him I doubt he'd let me drive it..
Regardless I've tried over and over and over to get him to come to a track day with me. Yet he refuses and mentions how each run flat tire costs around $400 to replace.
Who the hell buys a car to putter around in?
Regardless I've tried over and over and over to get him to come to a track day with me. Yet he refuses and mentions how each run flat tire costs around $400 to replace.
Who the hell buys a car to putter around in?
08-26-2010, 09:19 AM
#60
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I guess the moral of the story is, if you can afford (cash, none of this financing or leasing crap that is for retards and wannabees) a BMW get it. If not, get the GT and be happy.