2006 S is out
11-04-2005, 07:59 AM
#71
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Many of us would have jumped (might still) at a "Type R" version, lighter and more brutal.
The S2000 is a lousy "street car" and it always was. Not enough torque move aggressively in traffic, limited rear view, not much storage, the interior is cramped (and only seats two), and the OEM tires are made for dry warm weather. So what is it about the S2000 that makes you even think of it as a street car?
Not all of us care about comfort.
The S2000 is a lousy "street car" and it always was. Not enough torque move aggressively in traffic, limited rear view, not much storage, the interior is cramped (and only seats two), and the OEM tires are made for dry warm weather. So what is it about the S2000 that makes you even think of it as a street car?
Not all of us care about comfort.
11-04-2005, 09:25 AM
#72
It's a street car because it's a convertible. There are no convertible race cars. Open-cockpit, yes. Convertible, no. If it had been intended "purely" for the track (but still had to be street-legal), it would have been a coupe.
Let's all just agree: yes, it was a lousy street car in '00. Yes, it's gotten much better. And yes, it's still a lousy street car.
Let's all just agree: yes, it was a lousy street car in '00. Yes, it's gotten much better. And yes, it's still a lousy street car.
11-04-2005, 10:35 AM
#73
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Nodisguise, you misunderstood. It is your opinion that it is less fun on the street, and there are a couple who agree with you. I don't feel that way. I personally enjoy my AP2 more on the street, there are plenty of reasons why. For one, I have driven both AP1 and AP2 back to back and the steering ratio difference was barely noticeable. What makes the S2000 special is the turn-in characteristics, not the ratio. The new Civic Si has a quicker ratio than the AP1 but is it going to turn in like an S2000? No. The AP2 still turns in like nothing else on the road, remember it has less tire sidewall and stiffer steering rack bushings which offset the slower ratio. The Elise has a way slower ratio than any S2000 but does that alone make it a less enjoyable car to drive?
I also prefer the AP2 because the EPS has a bit less boost. I always felt the AP1 steering was precise but a bit overboosted, the AP2 retains that precision but the weighting is closer to my ideal. There are also 2 changes which constantly get bagged on as "watering down" but IMO make the car better in a performance environment. First, the extra bump compliance in the rear helps the car put power down better coming out of corners, makes it more predictable on bad surfaces. Second, the issue of torque- face it you cannot drive this car in VTEC 100% of the time unless you are driving 10/10ths on the street which you already agreed was a bad idea. I still have a hard time understanding why a bit more torque coming off 2nd gear corners is a bad thing. On the twisty roads I drive on you cannot come flying out of these blind bends in full VTEC without risk of mowing down a cyclist on corner exit. Certainly the torque difference does not turn it into an LS1, but a little extra means a little more fun in the real world for me.
Like I said, there are compromises. Losing the extra RPM up top is not a beneficial thing. But on balance, I think my car is just about perfect for taking the scenic route home from work
I'm sure I could get used to the AP1 as well. I really don't care who has the "best" S2000, they are all great to me. I know anyone who has actually spent time in both of these cars will know that the differences are blown way out of proportion on this board. These cars are so much more similar to each other than they are to any other car on the road. I just want to know, have you actually ever driven an AP2 or are you just against the principle of the changes that were made?
Peter
I also prefer the AP2 because the EPS has a bit less boost. I always felt the AP1 steering was precise but a bit overboosted, the AP2 retains that precision but the weighting is closer to my ideal. There are also 2 changes which constantly get bagged on as "watering down" but IMO make the car better in a performance environment. First, the extra bump compliance in the rear helps the car put power down better coming out of corners, makes it more predictable on bad surfaces. Second, the issue of torque- face it you cannot drive this car in VTEC 100% of the time unless you are driving 10/10ths on the street which you already agreed was a bad idea. I still have a hard time understanding why a bit more torque coming off 2nd gear corners is a bad thing. On the twisty roads I drive on you cannot come flying out of these blind bends in full VTEC without risk of mowing down a cyclist on corner exit. Certainly the torque difference does not turn it into an LS1, but a little extra means a little more fun in the real world for me.
Like I said, there are compromises. Losing the extra RPM up top is not a beneficial thing. But on balance, I think my car is just about perfect for taking the scenic route home from work
I'm sure I could get used to the AP1 as well. I really don't care who has the "best" S2000, they are all great to me. I know anyone who has actually spent time in both of these cars will know that the differences are blown way out of proportion on this board. These cars are so much more similar to each other than they are to any other car on the road. I just want to know, have you actually ever driven an AP2 or are you just against the principle of the changes that were made?Peter
11-04-2005, 11:37 AM
#75
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Originally Posted by nodisguise,Nov 2 2005, 02:58 PM
It's not really a matter of sportscarness.
Many consider the Ferrari F40 the most fun, rewarding, and involving Ferrari ever, and It has no electronic aids at all.
Traction control in many modern cars, including Ferraris has been demonstrated to slow the car down a little bit while making them easier to drive. In general, with traction control you give up some feel, and a little bit of speed, for a little more driveability, and idiot proofing.
Amit has a good point. His distinction between traction control in a 400hp car, and in a 240 HP car with ~155lbs of torque is an important one. Traction control in a 400hp can definitely save your ass if you're less careful than you should be, but you have to do something pretty stupid to get saved by traction control in a 240 hp car.
As long as you can turn it off, though, it doesn't bother me. The few pounds it will add are worth it if Honda sells some more of these. They deserve to be rewarded for sticking their neck out and making the S2000 at all, and it would be nice if other car manufacturers followed suit. The "watering down" doesn't bother me as long as there are '00 models in good condition around for me to pick up should my current '00 blow up or something.
Many consider the Ferrari F40 the most fun, rewarding, and involving Ferrari ever, and It has no electronic aids at all.
Traction control in many modern cars, including Ferraris has been demonstrated to slow the car down a little bit while making them easier to drive. In general, with traction control you give up some feel, and a little bit of speed, for a little more driveability, and idiot proofing.
Amit has a good point. His distinction between traction control in a 400hp car, and in a 240 HP car with ~155lbs of torque is an important one. Traction control in a 400hp can definitely save your ass if you're less careful than you should be, but you have to do something pretty stupid to get saved by traction control in a 240 hp car.
As long as you can turn it off, though, it doesn't bother me. The few pounds it will add are worth it if Honda sells some more of these. They deserve to be rewarded for sticking their neck out and making the S2000 at all, and it would be nice if other car manufacturers followed suit. The "watering down" doesn't bother me as long as there are '00 models in good condition around for me to pick up should my current '00 blow up or something.
11-04-2005, 12:12 PM
#76
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Oh nooooes! They're adding... Traction control! EEEK! Run away, run away! 
It's f'in traction control. It will save you a lot of cash on tires. Turn it off if you think you're "cool".
More shoulder room? That's a bad thing how, again? Gee- make the car fit a larger percent of the population (like us broad shouldered athletic folks). Just because your muscleless azz can fit in it, doesn't mean everyone else can.
It's f'in traction control. It will save you a lot of cash on tires. Turn it off if you think you're "cool".
More shoulder room? That's a bad thing how, again? Gee- make the car fit a larger percent of the population (like us broad shouldered athletic folks). Just because your muscleless azz can fit in it, doesn't mean everyone else can.
11-04-2005, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by nalVle,Nov 1 2005, 07:48 PM
i didnt know these were on the new s2000 - im very upset. since the release of the s2000, all theyve done is make it more 'liveable' for americans (i.e. - more torque/lower redline, more shoulder room for 04-06s, softer suspension compared to AP1s) and now traction control?! thank god i own an 00. whats next, giving the s2000 a 3 liter V6 with 240hp and 265 torque with a 6k redline, and a backseat?
-Chris
-Chris
11-04-2005, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by SIN3,Nov 4 2005, 06:46 PM
fuken serious, the ap2 imo are so waterdown, the ap1 is true testiment to how a roadster should be, bouncy loud and high reving. my gf has a ap2 which is good for her but man it feel and drives like my old prelude or intergra. the clutch is WAY to civic feeling.
11-04-2005, 07:21 PM
#79
I drove an AP2 for the first time this week, and really liked it. Can't necessarily say it was better or worse for sure, but different, and I'm near ready for a change. It's down to an Elise or an AP2 for my next car!
As for traction control, think of all the people who have crashed them in instances where TC might have prevented it. Could have saved lives, injuries, not to mention your insurance premiums. My premiums have risen steadily during ownership of my car, and I'm convinced it's due to may idiot owners who didn't think they needed TC but really did.
As for the whiners who don't like the AP2, stick w/ your AP1 or buy an Elise!
As for traction control, think of all the people who have crashed them in instances where TC might have prevented it. Could have saved lives, injuries, not to mention your insurance premiums. My premiums have risen steadily during ownership of my car, and I'm convinced it's due to may idiot owners who didn't think they needed TC but really did.
As for the whiners who don't like the AP2, stick w/ your AP1 or buy an Elise!
11-04-2005, 07:30 PM
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Let's forget about traction controll, and suspension for a minute. Anyone thats perticular about thier suspension will change it, and TC can be turned off, so can't complain there. I think the reason why so many people are complaining is because the s2000 was designed to be a high performance sports car, and they did a great job at it. In six years of production, we'd hoped for upgrades that really mean more performance. Not that we're not thankful for the better sound, rear glass windoes, and physical enhancements. And once again, you can't be happy about the fact that the displacement was increased without increase in HP.