Sparky

I never thought about the negative effects of ethanol on your engine. This explains why you see water pouring out of SUV's tailpipes all the time. I've noticed it often, but never made the connection.

Regarding our prices, for every gallon of gas, there is a 18.4 cent/gallon Federal excise tax, 18.0 cent/gallon STATE excise tax (that explains CA prices), local taxes depending on your county/city and 8+% sales tax (on top of the other taxes - yes, you pay sales tax on the taxes!)

Additionally, the crude oil prices you see on the news apply to the price of crude BEFORE shipping. Although we have several refineries in CA, our cost of shipping is substantially greater than the east coast. Primarily because our primary sources of foreign oil (Middle East, Gulf of Mexico, Texas, etc.) are significantly further away.

Additionally the "special" gas we use means that all our gasoline is refined within the state. This results in higher costs with increased demand because we can't import our fuel from elsewhere. It also means that the refinery must pay state income tax on top of federal income tax. Wages are also higher due to a higher cost of living (due to higher gasoline prices and state taxes). These variables increase refinery costs, which drive up gasoline prices. This is all on top of the fact that they have to repay the bonds and loans used to pay for the upgrades (twice: first MTBE, now Ethanol) due to our reformulated gasoline.

So, why is gas cheaper in LA?

LA has the benefit that it produces oil, which contributes to lower transportation costs, which lowers prices. Believe it or not, almost 50% of our oil comes from California. Another 25% from Alaska, and 25% foreign. (Whaddya wanna bet SoCal uses 100% California oil, and we use 50% foreign and 50% Alaskan oil.)

So, why is gas cheaper in the central valley?

Taxes and transportation. First of all, many of our cities charge additional exise taxes on gasoline (usually attributed to BART and public transportation). Second, our sales taxes are higher due to BART and public transportation.

To top it off, because of the Caldecott Tunnell explosion way back in the 80's (?), they don't allow tanker trucks in tunnels and on bridges any more (except 2-3am or something in some locations - ironically the Caldecott explosion took place at 2:30am ). This means tankers must take the long way to get to most Bay Area locations. Lucky for them, there are no tunnels or bridges in the central valley!!

So, every time the prices spike, the politicians start hollering that the oil companies are making too much money. Some have even campaigned on the platform that they will lower gas prices by putting profit caps on the oil companies (like you could do that to an international conglomerate!! ) However, it is the government that is making all the money. 18 cents/gallon excise tax + 8.25% sales tax = 18 + 16.5 (@$2/gal) = 34.5c/gal to the state for doing nothing.

But wait, there is more!! The State General Fund, City, County, State Local Revenue Fund, County Public Safety Fund, BART, CCTA and the County Public Transportation fund each get a cut too!! How much goes to each depends on your city and county, but suffice it to say that they all add up to another 10-25 cents depending on your location. Which locations do you think are in the 25c range?? Yeah, you guessed it... Bay Area cities that benefit from BART!! (Ever notice how much cheaper gas is in San Jose compared to Pleasanton?!)

There you have it. $0.59 of your $2.08 gallon of gas going to the state.

In the mean time, the refinery keeps (on average) a whopping 45c/gal (after crude oil cost) to cover all expenses, including multibillion dollar modifications mandated by the state to support cleaner fuels, price flucutation risks, currency fluctuation risks, insurance, state inspections, marketing costs, transportation costs, etc.... oh and they have to actually refine the stuff out of a black sludge.

Good luck with your petroleum stocks, Stookfreak.

Does the government really want lower gasoline prices? Lets see... a 12c price increase equates to 1c in additional sales taxes per gallon. Not much.... California consumed only 14.8 BILLION gallons of gasoline in 2000, so a 12c increase is worth $148M to the state.

Yeah, those oil companies are robbing us blind, eh?

Good thing those politicians are nice enough to tell us where to look for the culprit!!

No worries, though. I still spend more on tires than I do on gas. Someone should do something about those TIRE prices!!!! I'll vote for the politician that promises profit caps for the tire companies!!

4IGS2000

GET REAL!! ! that is all i have to say. Sorry guys to seem like a jerk, but 91 and 92 Octane aint gonna make squat for a difference in performance. The Vtec aint gonna feel stronger or quicker acceleration. The only gas that makes a difference is Cheveron with Techron that has an additive to clean the internal combustion areas.

If you guys want to spend gas $$ driving around looking for that 92 octane go ahead.
91 octane and 92 octane is the same
just my $.02

yu888

actually, i am sure thats just a market demand thing, as there are less people in pleasanton, and higher incomes than the parts of san jose that have cheaper gas. my observation actually shows that the east bay, ie berkeley, richmond areas (they get BART service right?), has cheaper gas than most of san jose and the south bay.

[QUOTE]posted by 4igs2000---[B] GET REAL!! ! that is all i have to say. Sorry guys to seem like a jerk, but 91 and 92 Octane aint gonna make squat for a difference in performance. The Vtec aint gonna feel stronger or quicker

LATEOTT

I enjoyed reading the posts above, most of the points make sense to me. I hope this is not getting off topic, but I wanted to clear up a couple of things.

First of all, water is a combustion product of hydrocarbons as well as alcohols. Alkanes combine with oxygen to form (mostly) CO2 and water, so water is not bad for your engine in that sense. Water drips out of an SUV or an S2000 exhaust before it warms up because the water vapor in exhaust gases condenses on the cold exhaust surfaces. After the pipes get hot, no more condensation.

Next, there are clearly a lot of politics involved in the cost of fuel. I'll try not to get too political... To my knowlege the major refineries have not yet switched from MTBE to ethanol, so that seems somewhat unrelated to this change in 92 octane availability (at least in my brain). As the switch to ethanol takes place, the SOURCE of ethanol becomes controversial. Apparently there are significant taxes/restrictions on importing ethanol (to protect the domestic ethanol producers, which are subsidized in other ways as well. I believe California is suing for the right to buy ethanol from outside the country since the EPA insists that we keep oxygenates in our gasoline. This lawsuit is a good thing cost-wise since it allows more competition in ethanol sourcing--it will make gasoline less expensive.

Why is gas so high in the Bay Area? Including the reasons outlined above, real estate is more expensive (just a little!) so that limits competition on the retail end. I have been in the Bay area for almost twenty years and it's amazing how many fewer stations there are now. Couple reasons for this: so many have been closed down, and barriers to entry are very high (just try to build a new gas station somewhere in your neighborhood!). Remember when there would be four different stations on all four corners of an intersection? I know of several intersections where one company (Unocal) merged with one or more other companies, acquired their stations, and closed/tore them down. Then they sold the property with the restriction that a gas station COULD NOT BE BUILT ON THE LOT! Seems illegal to me, but they did it again and again. Most Bay Area gas stations are owned by the oil companies, and with no competition they easily keep the prices up. The retail profits are apparently low, but when you have a vertical monopoly you can decide which part of your business makes the profits.

As far as "destroying the Alaska Wilderness"... Again, without being too political here, as a driver/gasoline consumer I have felt it is my responsibility to become informed on the subject of drilling in ANWR. My sure-to-be-controversial conclusion (having some knowledge of the environmental controls on current drilling/exploration on the North Slope) is that there may be no better place on the planet to drill for oil. This is coming from a guy who loves hiking, camping, kayaking and wilderness (and furry creatures) as much as or more than most people. My degree is in Biology with a concentration in California Wildlife Biology.

The things I have learned really have surprised me. ANWR is a very politically sensitive topic these days, but we really only see one side of the issue here. Have you noticed whenever they show it on the news they show caribou and other fuzzy creatures walking around, birds nesting, etc.? That is how most U.S. citizens know it, but is is not a very good representation. This refuge is 19,000,000 acres in size. Nineteen million acres. About 605 San Franciscos would fit in that space. (Might be warmer there in the summer, too!) Any part that anyone has ever seen is a minute fraction of the expanse of land that has been set aside by giving it the name "refuge". (Can't touch it now!!!! ) I grew up on a 100 acre farm and you could fence off 1000 hundred-acre farms splashed around in there and it would occupy less than half of a percent of all of the land. I doubt you would see your nearest neighbor. No more than a couple hundred people see any part of ANWR in any year.

I am personally confident that exploration/drilling up there could be done without damaging the environment. I kind of feel like if we Americans are going to ask Saudis to drill in their desert, or Venezuelans to drill in Lake Maracaibo, we ought to think long and hard about drilling in our deserted Arctic. Definitely if I had to choose between California shoreline, Texas ranches, or the Great Lakes, and ANWR, I know what I would choose. Anyway, with a little reading about ANWR my opinion has changed, and I don't think ALL of it should be hands-off.

Hmmm...I think that was more than $.02...!

Back on topic, an independent station in San Leandro had 92 octane last time I went there, and said they weren't going to 91. I'll check next time I fill up.

Sparky

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LATEOTT
[B]Water drips out of an SUV or an S2000 exhaust before it warms up because the water vapor in exhaust gases condenses on the cold exhaust surfaces.

yu888

[QUOTE]posted by Sparky:---[B]Oh the BART thing. Bart taxes are higher in areas where BART has been recentlyinstalled, which is why Pleasanton and Dublin are so expensive. (Now you're gunna say that Castro Valley is not that expensive and recently got a BART station...) Castro