S2000 VS Elise 111S VS Z3 3.0 VS Boxster
10-30-2002, 06:57 PM
#21
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I would say it's only between the Boxster and the S. For me, I'd disregard the others in your list. My summary? Boxster is the better car, S is the better value (by far...!). Money no object? I'd go the Porsche. 
10-30-2002, 08:03 PM
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I disagree re ur comment that a new clutch would be required no matter how you launch it if you redline often - As long as you are double clutching all downshifts, wear should be greatly minimised.
You mean 'rev-match' and not 'double-clucth' ... correct? Double-cluthing will only help the synchros and not the clutch (and even then the benefit of it in modern cars is questionable). Rev-matching on the othr hand means that the clutch needs to do less work in mathing the driveshaft and engine speed. This certainly helps.
Though I do rev-match 100% of the time and that's still not enough. Where a lot of the wear happens is on up-shifts. If you upshift quickly and at redline then the moment the clutch tries to grip, it tries to match the engine which is still spinning at 7000+rpm. This is a lot higher then in any other car ... in the Elise this happens at more like 5,000rpm when shifting at redline. As you can see the S2000 engine spins almost 50% quicker than most other cars when the clutch tries to 'grab' (shifting at redline) - hence a lot more wear than other cars.
When my clutch had ~23,000km, it was about 3/4 worn and I have done 10 - 15 agressive launches altogether with it so I don't think that's what did most of the wear (also, the clutch did not slip once while doing so or in it's life). When I had it replaced I replaced it with a custom heavy-duty clutch and the people who made it for me said that they see the same thing on the NSX and Ferraries (ie. on high revving engines) and that the clutches don't last any longer in those cars .... they though of the clutch being worn out like this as normal for this kind of a car with a 'street' clutch. Also they were the ones that explained to me the amount of wear that happens on up-shifts in high-revving cars.
You mean 'rev-match' and not 'double-clucth' ... correct? Double-cluthing will only help the synchros and not the clutch (and even then the benefit of it in modern cars is questionable). Rev-matching on the othr hand means that the clutch needs to do less work in mathing the driveshaft and engine speed. This certainly helps.
Though I do rev-match 100% of the time and that's still not enough. Where a lot of the wear happens is on up-shifts. If you upshift quickly and at redline then the moment the clutch tries to grip, it tries to match the engine which is still spinning at 7000+rpm. This is a lot higher then in any other car ... in the Elise this happens at more like 5,000rpm when shifting at redline. As you can see the S2000 engine spins almost 50% quicker than most other cars when the clutch tries to 'grab' (shifting at redline) - hence a lot more wear than other cars.
When my clutch had ~23,000km, it was about 3/4 worn and I have done 10 - 15 agressive launches altogether with it so I don't think that's what did most of the wear (also, the clutch did not slip once while doing so or in it's life). When I had it replaced I replaced it with a custom heavy-duty clutch and the people who made it for me said that they see the same thing on the NSX and Ferraries (ie. on high revving engines) and that the clutches don't last any longer in those cars .... they though of the clutch being worn out like this as normal for this kind of a car with a 'street' clutch. Also they were the ones that explained to me the amount of wear that happens on up-shifts in high-revving cars.
10-31-2002, 12:46 AM
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Originally posted by DavidM
I disagree re ur comment that a new clutch would be required no matter how you launch it if you redline often - As long as you are double clutching all downshifts, wear should be greatly minimised.
You mean 'rev-match' and not 'double-clucth' ... correct? Double-cluthing will only help the synchros and not the clutch (and even then the benefit of it in modern cars is questionable). Rev-matching on the othr hand means that the clutch needs to do less work in mathing the driveshaft and engine speed. This certainly helps.
Though I do rev-match 100% of the time and that's still not enough. Where a lot of the wear happens is on up-shifts. If you upshift quickly and at redline then the moment the clutch tries to grip, it tries to match the engine which is still spinning at 7000+rpm. This is a lot higher then in any other car ... in the Elise this happens at more like 5,000rpm when shifting at redline. As you can see the S2000 engine spins almost 50% quicker than most other cars when the clutch tries to 'grab' (shifting at redline) - hence a lot more wear than other cars.
When my clutch had ~23,000km, it was about 3/4 worn and I have done 10 - 15 agressive launches altogether with it so I don't think that's what did most of the wear (also, the clutch did not slip once while doing so or in it's life). When I had it replaced I replaced it with a custom heavy-duty clutch and the people who made it for me said that they see the same thing on the NSX and Ferraries (ie. on high revving engines) and that the clutches don't last any longer in those cars .... they though of the clutch being worn out like this as normal for this kind of a car with a 'street' clutch. Also they were the ones that explained to me the amount of wear that happens on up-shifts in high-revving cars.
I disagree re ur comment that a new clutch would be required no matter how you launch it if you redline often - As long as you are double clutching all downshifts, wear should be greatly minimised.
You mean 'rev-match' and not 'double-clucth' ... correct? Double-cluthing will only help the synchros and not the clutch (and even then the benefit of it in modern cars is questionable). Rev-matching on the othr hand means that the clutch needs to do less work in mathing the driveshaft and engine speed. This certainly helps.
Though I do rev-match 100% of the time and that's still not enough. Where a lot of the wear happens is on up-shifts. If you upshift quickly and at redline then the moment the clutch tries to grip, it tries to match the engine which is still spinning at 7000+rpm. This is a lot higher then in any other car ... in the Elise this happens at more like 5,000rpm when shifting at redline. As you can see the S2000 engine spins almost 50% quicker than most other cars when the clutch tries to 'grab' (shifting at redline) - hence a lot more wear than other cars.
When my clutch had ~23,000km, it was about 3/4 worn and I have done 10 - 15 agressive launches altogether with it so I don't think that's what did most of the wear (also, the clutch did not slip once while doing so or in it's life). When I had it replaced I replaced it with a custom heavy-duty clutch and the people who made it for me said that they see the same thing on the NSX and Ferraries (ie. on high revving engines) and that the clutches don't last any longer in those cars .... they though of the clutch being worn out like this as normal for this kind of a car with a 'street' clutch. Also they were the ones that explained to me the amount of wear that happens on up-shifts in high-revving cars.
As for the heavy-duty clutch... how much would that cost? I can imagine myself doing some stop-light launches against some Monaro or something, and I'd hate to feel like the clutch is about to give way on me.
I've done it in the Z3 and 2.7 Boxter... and I must say that the Z3's torque feels much better/stronger than the Porsche (even tho the figures show similar amounts of torque). Not sure why tho.
I wonder if I'm going to get used to so little torque after driving Z3s... having to shift up/down all the time... in the Z3 I can leave it in 3rd or 4th and go virtually anywhere ;-)
10-31-2002, 01:51 AM
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Originally posted by jcl
Mmmm... got some of them from the websites I mentioned. I'm afraid I didn't bookmark all the sites... i visited sooo many i just jotted them down on a pad.
I've now read all the links you provided. Seems that to get good 0-100km/h performance from the S2000 you almost have to fry the clutch and transmission, while in the Elise you don't need to (to get the same/similar performance).
Is there any way to make the S2K do 0-100km/h without too much dramas and without adding 5K?
Mmmm... got some of them from the websites I mentioned. I'm afraid I didn't bookmark all the sites... i visited sooo many i just jotted them down on a pad.
I've now read all the links you provided. Seems that to get good 0-100km/h performance from the S2000 you almost have to fry the clutch and transmission, while in the Elise you don't need to (to get the same/similar performance).
Is there any way to make the S2K do 0-100km/h without too much dramas and without adding 5K?
If you are only interested in 0 - 100 times, buy a STi !!
10-31-2002, 03:14 AM
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Good points... I almost think that the clutch would be the "weak point" in getting good 0-100km/h times... presuming the drivetrain can withstand the pressure? How is your drivetrain (or is it only the clutch that tends to get buggered?)
Drivetrain seems fine ... no problems that I know off in my car. Also, the cluth is a lot stronger then you'd expect ... I was expecting it to be pretty weak but it never once slipped and once I did around 5 agressive standing starts in a row. Though, it does wear relatively quickly from my experience.
Last of all getting a good 0-100kph time in the S2000 is not hard at all (IMHO). When we were doing the tests with G-tech, we had no problems getting consistent low 6s for the 0-100kph. I can't remember the exact times but we managed a few times between 6.1 and 6.2secs and 6.4 was very easily repeatable that day. Even with two people on board we managed to get as low as 6.3. I'm sure that sub 6sec time is doable with a bit of practice and in the right conditions (2kturkey managed sub 6 on a later date ... 5.8something if I remember correctly).
Anyway, getting a good 0-100kph time is very simple - dial up around 7,000rpm and let the clutch go. Car does the rest as you just hang on for the ride. Whether it is something you want to do often is a different story but there is nothing difficult about it.
As for the heavy-duty clutch... how much would that cost?
I had mine custom built for $500 ... though, it's a bit too agressive and if I even get a new one I'll get one made up that's a bit less agressive than what I have now. For reference value the stock clutch is around $1200.
I've done it in the Z3 and 2.7 Boxter... and I must say that the Z3's torque feels much better/stronger than the Porsche (even tho the figures show similar amounts of torque). Not sure why tho.
Because the BMW has the torque lower in the rev-range. That is what you feel when you move off idle. Also you'll be surprised but the Boxster 2.7 does not feel as much torquier than the S2000 as you would think from the numbers. It is torquier but not by as much as you'd think due to the S2000 super agressive gearing/redline.
I wonder if I'm going to get used to so little torque after driving Z3s... having to shift up/down all the time... in the Z3 I can leave it in 3rd or 4th and go virtually anywhere ;-)
The Z3 3.0 definatelly out torques the S2000 and feels that way too. Though S2000 is very comfortable in 3rd gear at a pretty large spred of speed. It can pull from as low as 25kph and takes you to 144kph. From 40kph upwards the 3rd gear is actually very quick and was a big surprise for me.
If you are only interested in 0 - 100 times, buy a STi !!
Not necessarily. The STi does not seem any quicker than the S2000 (even to 100kph) and to get a good 'number' out of it you need to do the same thing as in the S2000 ie. dump it from close to redline. And I'm sure that's harder on the drivetrain of the STi than the S2000 due to it's weight and 4WD.
I'd say the S2000 can hold it's own in the 0-100kph sprint with anything else that costs less than $120k (with the exception of EVO VI and HSV GTS). Though the same can also be said about a 250kW+ HSV or the new XR6 Turbo and even the 200SX and SS to a degree.
Drivetrain seems fine ... no problems that I know off in my car. Also, the cluth is a lot stronger then you'd expect ... I was expecting it to be pretty weak but it never once slipped and once I did around 5 agressive standing starts in a row. Though, it does wear relatively quickly from my experience.
Last of all getting a good 0-100kph time in the S2000 is not hard at all (IMHO). When we were doing the tests with G-tech, we had no problems getting consistent low 6s for the 0-100kph. I can't remember the exact times but we managed a few times between 6.1 and 6.2secs and 6.4 was very easily repeatable that day. Even with two people on board we managed to get as low as 6.3. I'm sure that sub 6sec time is doable with a bit of practice and in the right conditions (2kturkey managed sub 6 on a later date ... 5.8something if I remember correctly).
Anyway, getting a good 0-100kph time is very simple - dial up around 7,000rpm and let the clutch go. Car does the rest as you just hang on for the ride. Whether it is something you want to do often is a different story but there is nothing difficult about it.
As for the heavy-duty clutch... how much would that cost?
I had mine custom built for $500 ... though, it's a bit too agressive and if I even get a new one I'll get one made up that's a bit less agressive than what I have now. For reference value the stock clutch is around $1200.
I've done it in the Z3 and 2.7 Boxter... and I must say that the Z3's torque feels much better/stronger than the Porsche (even tho the figures show similar amounts of torque). Not sure why tho.
Because the BMW has the torque lower in the rev-range. That is what you feel when you move off idle. Also you'll be surprised but the Boxster 2.7 does not feel as much torquier than the S2000 as you would think from the numbers. It is torquier but not by as much as you'd think due to the S2000 super agressive gearing/redline.
I wonder if I'm going to get used to so little torque after driving Z3s... having to shift up/down all the time... in the Z3 I can leave it in 3rd or 4th and go virtually anywhere ;-)
The Z3 3.0 definatelly out torques the S2000 and feels that way too. Though S2000 is very comfortable in 3rd gear at a pretty large spred of speed. It can pull from as low as 25kph and takes you to 144kph. From 40kph upwards the 3rd gear is actually very quick and was a big surprise for me.
If you are only interested in 0 - 100 times, buy a STi !!
Not necessarily. The STi does not seem any quicker than the S2000 (even to 100kph) and to get a good 'number' out of it you need to do the same thing as in the S2000 ie. dump it from close to redline. And I'm sure that's harder on the drivetrain of the STi than the S2000 due to it's weight and 4WD.
I'd say the S2000 can hold it's own in the 0-100kph sprint with anything else that costs less than $120k (with the exception of EVO VI and HSV GTS). Though the same can also be said about a 250kW+ HSV or the new XR6 Turbo and even the 200SX and SS to a degree.
10-31-2002, 01:13 PM
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Originally posted by DavidM
I disagree re ur comment that a new clutch would be required no matter how you launch it if you redline often - As long as you are double clutching all downshifts, wear should be greatly minimised.
You mean 'rev-match' and not 'double-clucth' ... correct? Double-cluthing will only help the synchros and not the clutch (and even then the benefit of it in modern cars is questionable). Rev-matching on the othr hand means that the clutch needs to do less work in mathing the driveshaft and engine speed. This certainly helps.
I disagree re ur comment that a new clutch would be required no matter how you launch it if you redline often - As long as you are double clutching all downshifts, wear should be greatly minimised.
You mean 'rev-match' and not 'double-clucth' ... correct? Double-cluthing will only help the synchros and not the clutch (and even then the benefit of it in modern cars is questionable). Rev-matching on the othr hand means that the clutch needs to do less work in mathing the driveshaft and engine speed. This certainly helps.
Yep, also agree that upshifts will be causing wear on clutch - but usually not as much on a continous basis as compared to downshifting and slipping teh clutch.
11-01-2002, 12:39 PM
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Originally posted by tze
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but rev-matching without double clutching will actually result in a more worn clutch
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but rev-matching without double clutching will actually result in a more worn clutch
The clutch saving effect comes from the fact that the engine speed matches the equivalent road speed in the next gear and you don't get clutch slip under load when re-engaging. It also saves transmission components because of reduced shock and stress. Double declutching along with the rev match brings the input shaft of the transmission up to speed which saves the synchros when you finally want to engage the gear, but has little effect on clutch wear except that you've compressed the springs twice which might wear them out more
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