IMHO, the correct way to get the best out of an S2000 on the track is to drive it like a formula car, not a touring car or sports car. That is to say - a more curving line for entry to a corner with trail braking to the about the apex. Then straight of the brake onto the power with enough application to keep corner speed, and the car neutral. Exit from the corner should be on a smooth flowing line with smooth, rapid application of power - taking advantage of the great traction offered by the Torsen diff.

One needs to balance the power down, and hence exit speed with maintaining traction and a neutral attitude on the car.
As naishou says, sideways ain't quick !!! (Isn't it interesting the number of photos of McConville going sideways and smoking the bags - seems some years ago he tried that in a DJR Falcon and cost them the race!!!!)

The moral here is drive with your head, not your right foot.

 

Funny thing about the Motor's PCOTY is that they meansure things like acceleration, top speed, braking and laptimes, yet still the way a cars' "perfromance" is detrinined is by voting (ie. personal opinion)?! Why not just work with the perfromance numebers to determine "perfromance" ... what does an 'opinion' have to dowith that?

Then there's the "value" category and again they vote on it ... I have no idea how they can do this via personal opinion again ... isn't this higly personal? To me Boxster is a good value while to someone else MX5 is not because it cannot carry more than 2 people. To someone a soft-road 4WD at $50k is a good value while no amount of discounting will make a soft-road 4WD a good value for me as I have zero use/pleasure for one. I'd just go purelly by the price to determine the value ... afterall, if the performance is there than it will make up the points.

I'd be much happier if they (ie. Motor) only 'vote' on subjective categies (ie. ones that cannot be measured). Like "dynamics", "drivability" and "design/finction" ... though, as I said before, what does design/function have to do with PCOTY.

So, what I did is punch all the data and subjective 'votes' into an Excell spreadsheet which works on the principle that:

PCOTY - Perfromance + Votes + Value (each of equal weight).

where:
- Perfmormance = Perfromance data + lap times (each of equal weight. The Performance data = acceleration + top speed + braking ... again, each of equal weight).
- Votes = Dynamics + Drivability + Design/function (each of equal weight)
- Value = A figure direclty related to the cost of cars where the lower the cost, the higher the value.

Anyway, this is what the spreadsheet returns:
1st = Porsche BoxsterS'03 (102.64)
2nd = Subaru Impreza WRX Sti'03 (81.72)
3rd = Ford Falcon XR6 Turbo (77.93)
4th = Holden Monaro CV8'03 (74.11)
5th = Audi S3 (72.60)
6th = Mercedes E55 AMG (72.16
6th = HSV GTS'03 (71.77
8th = Mazda6 Luxuy Sports (69.44)
9th = Holden Commodore SV8 (64.08)
10th = Mini Cooper S (62.38)
11th = Lotus Elise 111S (62.22)
12th = Mercedes SL55 AMG (57.47)
13th = HSV Mallo R8 (55.71)
14th = Honda S2000 (45.35)
15th = Mitsubishi Raliant Magna (44.67)
16th = Alfa Romeo 156 GTA (44.48)
17th = Ford Fairmont Ghia (v8) (43.02)
18th = Chrisler Viper RT/10 (41.94)
19th = Toyota Camry Sportivo (40.52)
20th = Jaguar S-Type R (39.46)
21th = BMW X5 4.6is (4.66)
22th = Jaguar XKR (-2.72)

So the S2000 does not do that great still (ie. 14th) as it's held back by the 'votes'. If the judges scored it better (ie. at 88% overal) then it would actually win. If scored at more like 70% then it would finish in top 6. Bottom line is that they gave the S2000 more like 50% score overall where the 'drivvability' was bellow that and 'design/function' way bellow that.

ps. Getting back to the Motor's PCOTY (and not my reworking of it), 18th for the S2000 puts in some fine category. Good example is Lotus Elise that finished 17th last year (right behind the Barina) and surprisingly the 'votes' are very similar to the S2000 (and so is the perfromance). So at least they are consistent :-) Also Type-R Intergra finished 19th that year.

 

I think that can work. It sounds like how I used to drive mine, but then I think I drive all cars like that, and I didn't know there were different theories on how to drive formula cars vs touring cars. I thought it's just a question of personal style. For example it's said that Michael Schumacher likes to turn in early and brake into the corner, whereas Mika Hakkinen used to take a wide, late entry and really throw the car in. I'm not sure to what extent we can trust journalists to get this kind of thing right but it's interesting to note that despite allegedly very different styles both are said to like a car with a pointy front end and a rear end they have to look after themselves, more or less like an S2000. I doubt this really means they like taily oversteering beasts with no traction though, it's all just relative. The other thing about an open wheeler is that unless it's fundamentally flawed, you can set it up to have whatever balance you like, to suit your own style and preference. Nonetheless I think any professional driver should be able to adapt his style to a car that handles differently from his own personal ideal. I'm sure Cameron McConville can do that as well as most.

Something that I find curious is the different experiences of some of us on this site with the S2000's handling. DavidM seems to be getting power oversteer, something that I never managed unless deliberately provoking it, and it was never enough to seriously hamper cornering. Even in a car with an oversteering balance, applying power should settle the rear provided it has traction. Only when power overcomes traction do you get power oversteer. With my own S2000, I noticed a handling issue that was particularly noticeable when my rear toe in was too low. It had a tendency to ovesteer post apex. I would come into the slower corners with the "controlled neutral" balance of a trail braker. That is, using the brake to shift weight forward and overcome the car's natural tendency to understeer due to the high entry speed, at the same time washing off speed to the apex. The problem is that the car would then switch very rapidly and quite oddly to an oversteering stance just post apex despite being entirely off the brake or even on the power by that point. It felt like a kind of roll steer to me, certainly not power oversteer though. In my case unless the rear was really sliding I would still be able to get on the power, using it and a little opposite lock to keep the car in a straight line. This is fine in slow corners but in some quick stuff, especially where the road camber is a bit off, I even had the tail break loose despite being on the power, and applying more isn't an option because of the probability of running out of road and simply because the car doesn't have enough. In these situations a very large and very fast armful of opposite lock is the only available course of action, followed by a change of underwear, and I think it's this kind of unprovoked and sudden oversteer post apex that is the car's achilles heel, and part of the reason why Motor might have felt that the best way to drive the car is to go in slow, get on the power early and use it to settle the rear.

 

About 2 years ago F1 magazine did a graph comparison between Hakkinen and Schumacher using a lateral/acc-brake Gs thing. It was like a radar ...

anyway, VERY different styles. It showed just how much later Schumacher brakes (only a split second, but of course at 200km/h+ it's significant!)

One thing you might want to try to perfect if you want to "Master The S2000" is left foot braking? I don't know much about rear-wheel drives as I havent driven one on a regular basis for 4 years.

 

I decided to look at just the score that Motor gave to all the cars for the "dynamics". This is how Motor define "dynamics":

"Evaluation of steering feel and response; agility; stablity; brake feel and feedback; grip; ride quiality and control; ability to get power to the ground."

So I added up all the judges scores for every car and put them in a table (out of 120 moximum):

Boxster S = 117
Elise 111S = 112
SL55 AMG = 106
Mazda6 = 99
Audi S3 = 93
WRX STi'03 = 93
E55 AMG = 92
XR6 Turbo = 92
Viper RT/10 = 92
HSV GTS = 90
Mini Cooper S = 86
Honda S2000 = 84
Monaro CV8 = 83
Alfa Romeo 156 GTA = 79
Toyota Camry = 77
HSV Mallo R8 = 77
Ralliant Magna = 75
Jaguar S-Type R = 74
Comodore SV8 = 71
Ford Faimont Ghia (V8) = 65
BMW X5 4.6is = 59

I think that Motors judgement is flawed here. I cannot see how a Mazda6, XR6-T or CooperS can have better dynamins that the S2000. I'd put STi and A3 bellow the S2000 in terms of dynamics as well ... but these ar egood cars so seeing them above is not as glarringly wrong. Also Monaro CV8 has dynamics almost on par with the S2000 ... come on?! Out of the 22 cars the S2000 was 12th on the list in terms of dynamics.

Something that I find curious is the different experiences of some of us on this site with the S2000's handling. DavidM seems to be getting power oversteer, something that I never managed unless deliberately provoking it, and it was never enough to seriously hamper cornering.

I'll try and explain exaclty when the oversteer is 'hampresing' my speed. I go through a corner at what feels (to me) as fast as I can/dare. The front is gripping with no problem and the car is following the line but the messages from the car are that it does not have much more up it's sleave. I am on neutral throttle all through the apex and then I try to give it a bit more power post apex (to maximize speed on the straight). Here the car responds not by putting the power down (and maybe understeering a bit), but by the back steping out. If I give it any minute amount of extra power (beides 'neutral') then the back wants to step out. Hence I cannot get on power untill I have loosed the line enough and hence am alrady traveling mostly in the straight line.

My solution (at Sandwon last time) was to brake harder before the corner and hence enter the corner slower. That gives me 'room' in the chassis to be able to apply power on exit. I shaved off 1.5secs like that (of couse I learned the track better too).

Now I must point out that my last alignemnt was saying that I had only 2.5mm of toe-In at the back (total) and also my rear tyres very very sliperry (ie. old and worn). The tyres alone were a big factor as I could push my back out on a public road, in the dry sunny conditions and in 2nd gear at 5000rpm just by entring a corner briskly and trying to feed in more power. On the track they gained some 'stick' as they warmed up but I am sure they were not performing anywhere close to optimum.

Though, even when new I had the back stepping out at Winton when trying to keep corner speed that the front was willing to carry. The instuctor often had the back drift on on turn-in as he was entering the corners good 5kph+ quicker than me. The instructor was happy to control the drift and relly on the front end to hold it's line.

I'll report on how things are now that I have extra-sticky rears (hopefully) and that my aligment is in check.

ps.
btw - did they mention the term "good value" again regarding the Boxster S?

Yes Bernie, the BoxsterS scored 54 (out of 60) in the "value" category. On the other hand S2000 received 28 (out of 60) .... not sure how S2000 is such a bad value compared to the BoxsterS when the BoxsterS costs almost 80% more. Strange isn't it .... you see how 'value' is very much subjective and how it should not be scored by 'opinion'.

 

Though, even when new I had the back stepping out at Winton when trying to keep corner speed that the front was willing to carry. The instuctor often had the back drift on on turn-in as he was entering the corners good 5kph+ quicker than me. The instructor was happy to control the drift and relly on the front end to hold it's line.

Hi David, How did the instructor induce a back drift on turn-in? Did he trail the brake longer into the corner? Did he do it on intention? Was the throttle neutral when it happened or did he induce a bit of lift off oversteer?

Did he put the power on when the front wheels are almost straighten out? or did he power out with opposite lock and inducing 'four wheel drifting' on exit?

Sorry about asking so many questions but I am in the process of learning to drive an S. Your opinion would be very helpful. Thanks!

 

Hi David, How did the instructor induce a back drift on turn-in? Did he trail the brake longer into the corner? Did he do it on intention? Was the throttle neutral when it happened or did he induce a bit of lift off oversteer?

It's pretty simple actually .... all he did was carry more entry speed than I did ... that's all. He would brake late (in the straight line) but get off the brakes before me (ie. to carry more speed). Then on neutral power he'd turn in and the back would flick out ... not much but enough to warrant a steering correction. After that the car would either regain it's grip/composure at the back or sometimes he was happy to carry it through the corner.

Most noticably he did it at the three right hand 90deg corners that are taken at 80 - 90kph so you're in 2nd gear. Though, once he had the back stepping out (slightly) through the 140kph sweeper. Here he was again on neutral throttle and just neeeded to tighten the line (because of the speed). When he'd try to do that the back would step out ... not much but enough for he to saw-tooth at the wheel looking for the balance between a tight enough line and the back stepping out.

He was pretty happy to drive the car like that and was generally impressed with the car. He said that it felt and needs to be driven very much like a Lotus Elise (ie. babying the back a the limit). He sent me to John Bowe to speak about rear toe-IN if I wanted to 'tighten' the back as he was supposed to be familiar with the car and it's behaviour. If you want, raadr more about the JB course report in this thread https://www.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.php?...?threadid=77475. You'll notice that the S2000 held it's head pretty high in terms of lap-times.

Personally (as I mentioned before), I'd like the front and rear grip be a bit more balanced ... usually I think I have too much of it at the front and not enough at the back. My goal is aways to somehow rectify that.

Did he put the power on when the front wheels are almost straighten out? or did he power out with opposite lock and inducing 'four wheel drifting' on exit?

It's hard to say as it seemed more that the instructor was 'responding' to the car and did whatever was necesarry ... that did involve a fair bit of steering-wheel work sometimes but his sole purpose was to carry as much speed through a corner and then get on the power ASAP.

Sorry about asking so many questions but I am in the process of learning to drive an S. Your opinion would be very helpful. Thanks!

np at all, but really you need to take the car out onto the track and get a feel for it yourself. Truth is that driving styles do affect the way the S2000 feels. I have been in a car (at the track) with 2kTurkey and I disticlty remember the huge amounts of understeer he was getting out on exit from the corners ... I think that he was getting on power pre-apex while I do it at/post apex. So take it to a track, build up the speed slowly and see how the car feels ... there's no harm 'loosing it' at the track as long as you pick your spots so there's nothing to hit. Also the thing to remember is that S2000 is pretty gentle when the back steps out and it's pretty eazy to control (it also gives you plenty of warning). Of course if you let it swing out too far and too fast then you're in trouble just like in any other car. That is very much in contrast with MR2 tha tI mented a few posts up in this thread. You did not want to drive the MR2 with the back stepping out ... though, it was glued so well that you rerely had that problem. S2000 seps out much easier but then it's very controllable once it happens.

 

David, thanks heaps for the info. Will definitely take it to a track and do a driving course. I've been living with a civic (on and off track) for last 10 yrs and switching to a FR is a big de-learning and learning exercise. Fingers crossed.

 

Go and drive some hire karts. There's nothing that will better teach you about how a RWD with LSD handles.

 

Goddamit, I hate this!
Personally, I don't think one is well placed to judge value for money unless one can afford the damn thing in the first place. For everyone, a car is like everything else. You have to balance off its costs against your other needs and expenses. We all have a limit to what we can buy and afford.

How the hell can you judge something to be good value of you can't afford it?