Autocross Drivers School December 1st
12-03-2012, 06:00 AM
#21
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I believe 17" wheels will always offer a performance advantage. Firstly you can fit wider tires front and rear such as 225/255 (more contact patch) and you can run a smaller side wall will reduces side wall flex and will increase response and feel.
Not sure about your next question...maybe the wording. My recommendation to you and all S2000 owners would be to run stock sizes 225/255 (17") and once you are able to drive that setup close to or at the limit, then move to a full aftermarket wheel setup. Running the same size wheel, offset and tire on all four corners. 17x9 +63, +60, +54, +45 are all the most common offsets. Couple that with a 255 wide tire on all four corners. The higher the offset the easier the fitment is, meaning you dont need to worry about rolling fenders and trimming fender liners. The higher offsets will also make the wheel more sunken into the wheel well which is less visually pleasing, but more functional than say a +45 which requires rolling, pulling, and trimming of the fender liner. A +45 is more visually appealing because the wheel/tire will sit flush with the body and fill up the wheel wells.
Running non-staggered and 255 is the fastest setup for an S2000. The S2000 benefits hugely from the increased tire size in the front which helps with braking and cornering. That comes at a cost though. You are messing with the cars dynamics and by increasing the front grip you are changing the balance of the car and in a way reducing the grip of the rear. The front now has so much more grip that the rear of the car will lose grip sooner than it did before with a staggered setup. Therefore to run a proper non-staggered setup you need a larger front sway bar, and ideally some adjustable dampers. The front of the car needs to be stiffened substantially via the sway bar and dampers to correct the balance of the car. Without doing these supporting mods the car will be VERY loose and want to over-steer. The car WILL be a handful and will require a change in driving style. IN my last S2000 I went from staggered to non-staggered very quickly and the car was a handful. I loved all the extra grip in the front and it is a night and day difference, but the car was harder to drive. I did have adjustable dampers but did not yet get a sway bar. I will also say that it was a mistake jumping from staggered to non staggered so quickly because I did not learn to max out the stock setup yet.
For you Mark I would go get a set of OEM 17 AP2 wheels and buy a second set of high performance tires. Keep your stock 16's and V12 tires for normal street driving, group drives, and road trips. Then on the 17" wheels get some sticky tires such as Hankook RS3's (best bang for the buck on the market right now). Then swap wheels/tires for events. You can also run the 17's on the street but if your doing a lot of tracking and auto crossing and street miles be prepared to get 8-10,000 miles max out of a rear set of tires. Its also hard on the tires to heat cycle them on track and then heat cycle them with street duty. You will reduce the grip of the tires in a big way by doing this. For instance I used to run Dunlop Star Specs. Car was my daily driver and I did a couple track days. By introducing the tires to track temperatures, and running them on the street I heat cycled the tires out. The tires became rock hard and had very minimal grip left in them. This all occurred with probably 5,000 miles worth of tread left on the tires. So I basically heat cycled a set of perfectly good tires out and they became worthless. This is something worth considering so you maximize your tires and money. Now that I plan on doing some track events I will be limiting my street driving. That said though, I will never buy the current star specs again because they do heat cycle out easier than the RS3 which is what I run now. Those tires (RS3) love temperature and tire pressure and are good almost down to the cords!!
As I told you before, if you learn to drive quickly on all season tires, good for you! In the end it will make you a better driving as you will learn to have better car control. All season tires are also more audible so you can use sound to tell you if your driving hard enough. Ideally your tires should be singing all around the course. If not, then drive harder!! I am running RS-3's which are known to be very quiet and harder to make sing so they are not an ideal tire for someone learning. Their limits are also much much higher. After 1 day at Firebird Main I think I only got my tires singing through a few corners in my very last session. I would say I was pretty fast out there that day, but still not using the tires or car to its potential.
If you are finding yourself wanting more and aren't ready for wheels and tires then its time to start working on tire pressures. Learning and feeling what the differences are and where and how to set them. At that same time you may want to start with getting a proper and more aggressive alignment. Alignment will have a HUGE impact on the cars behaviors and is extremely important. That said though its something that can cause a headache as there is so much adjustment available it can be hard and costly to find that "ideal" alignment. There are plenty of good alignments available on the board and I can recommend some settings as well. A good alignment with some camber will not decrease your tire life substantially and wear your tires unevenly. That is a myth. Now if you run something stupid like -4 and above yes you will get camber wear. Improper or excessive toe is what will wear your tires. I have run up to -3.3 degrees of camber on my old S2000 and my tires wore PERFECTLY EVEN!! To go faster though means you have to use more of the car so yes do expect to get less life out of the consumables on the car (tires, brakes, fluids). You can also look into upgrading your brakes which is going to become a must if you continue to track. If you have not faded your stock pads by now on track though you are not driving nearly fast enough! Stock pads should fade after a handful of fast laps if you driving/pushing it hard enough.
The best way forward would be to do a mix of everything I listed here. 17's, learn tire pressure, stickier tires (not a must), better alignment, and some more aggressive brake pads. Depending on the mileage of your car some stainless steel brake lines should be swapped on purely based on safety. Rubber lines can crack and are prone to flexing when they get older. Also depending on how many times the caliper has been unbolted and how the caliper is supported added stress can be put on the metal fittings on the lines which can cause a failure. IT is important to never let the calipers dangle and to never let the lines get taught and stretched. As I am sure you realize having a brake failure while on track can be deadly and unfortunately there have been a few fatalities over the years from S2000 brake line failures. Its rare but it has happened.
I realize this is an expensive list but just slowly start piecing this all together. Also if you did all of this at once you are introducing a lot of new variables to the car and can make learning more difficult as the car has changed. A benefit of doing this step by step and slowly is you can feel each change and not have to re-learn the car every track day or autocross. The flip side of that though is if you do it slowly it may take a year or two to fully upgrade the car depending on how frequently you track/autocross it. If you only plan on doing a handful of events each year then try to get more of the stuff sooner. Two day events will also help because you may very well use most of the first day learning a possibly new track and re-learning the car. The second day can then be spent on finding speed. Shop around for deals on parts and keep an eye out for tire rebates.
Not sure about your next question...maybe the wording. My recommendation to you and all S2000 owners would be to run stock sizes 225/255 (17") and once you are able to drive that setup close to or at the limit, then move to a full aftermarket wheel setup. Running the same size wheel, offset and tire on all four corners. 17x9 +63, +60, +54, +45 are all the most common offsets. Couple that with a 255 wide tire on all four corners. The higher the offset the easier the fitment is, meaning you dont need to worry about rolling fenders and trimming fender liners. The higher offsets will also make the wheel more sunken into the wheel well which is less visually pleasing, but more functional than say a +45 which requires rolling, pulling, and trimming of the fender liner. A +45 is more visually appealing because the wheel/tire will sit flush with the body and fill up the wheel wells.
Running non-staggered and 255 is the fastest setup for an S2000. The S2000 benefits hugely from the increased tire size in the front which helps with braking and cornering. That comes at a cost though. You are messing with the cars dynamics and by increasing the front grip you are changing the balance of the car and in a way reducing the grip of the rear. The front now has so much more grip that the rear of the car will lose grip sooner than it did before with a staggered setup. Therefore to run a proper non-staggered setup you need a larger front sway bar, and ideally some adjustable dampers. The front of the car needs to be stiffened substantially via the sway bar and dampers to correct the balance of the car. Without doing these supporting mods the car will be VERY loose and want to over-steer. The car WILL be a handful and will require a change in driving style. IN my last S2000 I went from staggered to non-staggered very quickly and the car was a handful. I loved all the extra grip in the front and it is a night and day difference, but the car was harder to drive. I did have adjustable dampers but did not yet get a sway bar. I will also say that it was a mistake jumping from staggered to non staggered so quickly because I did not learn to max out the stock setup yet.
For you Mark I would go get a set of OEM 17 AP2 wheels and buy a second set of high performance tires. Keep your stock 16's and V12 tires for normal street driving, group drives, and road trips. Then on the 17" wheels get some sticky tires such as Hankook RS3's (best bang for the buck on the market right now). Then swap wheels/tires for events. You can also run the 17's on the street but if your doing a lot of tracking and auto crossing and street miles be prepared to get 8-10,000 miles max out of a rear set of tires. Its also hard on the tires to heat cycle them on track and then heat cycle them with street duty. You will reduce the grip of the tires in a big way by doing this. For instance I used to run Dunlop Star Specs. Car was my daily driver and I did a couple track days. By introducing the tires to track temperatures, and running them on the street I heat cycled the tires out. The tires became rock hard and had very minimal grip left in them. This all occurred with probably 5,000 miles worth of tread left on the tires. So I basically heat cycled a set of perfectly good tires out and they became worthless. This is something worth considering so you maximize your tires and money. Now that I plan on doing some track events I will be limiting my street driving. That said though, I will never buy the current star specs again because they do heat cycle out easier than the RS3 which is what I run now. Those tires (RS3) love temperature and tire pressure and are good almost down to the cords!!
As I told you before, if you learn to drive quickly on all season tires, good for you! In the end it will make you a better driving as you will learn to have better car control. All season tires are also more audible so you can use sound to tell you if your driving hard enough. Ideally your tires should be singing all around the course. If not, then drive harder!! I am running RS-3's which are known to be very quiet and harder to make sing so they are not an ideal tire for someone learning. Their limits are also much much higher. After 1 day at Firebird Main I think I only got my tires singing through a few corners in my very last session. I would say I was pretty fast out there that day, but still not using the tires or car to its potential.
If you are finding yourself wanting more and aren't ready for wheels and tires then its time to start working on tire pressures. Learning and feeling what the differences are and where and how to set them. At that same time you may want to start with getting a proper and more aggressive alignment. Alignment will have a HUGE impact on the cars behaviors and is extremely important. That said though its something that can cause a headache as there is so much adjustment available it can be hard and costly to find that "ideal" alignment. There are plenty of good alignments available on the board and I can recommend some settings as well. A good alignment with some camber will not decrease your tire life substantially and wear your tires unevenly. That is a myth. Now if you run something stupid like -4 and above yes you will get camber wear. Improper or excessive toe is what will wear your tires. I have run up to -3.3 degrees of camber on my old S2000 and my tires wore PERFECTLY EVEN!! To go faster though means you have to use more of the car so yes do expect to get less life out of the consumables on the car (tires, brakes, fluids). You can also look into upgrading your brakes which is going to become a must if you continue to track. If you have not faded your stock pads by now on track though you are not driving nearly fast enough! Stock pads should fade after a handful of fast laps if you driving/pushing it hard enough.
The best way forward would be to do a mix of everything I listed here. 17's, learn tire pressure, stickier tires (not a must), better alignment, and some more aggressive brake pads. Depending on the mileage of your car some stainless steel brake lines should be swapped on purely based on safety. Rubber lines can crack and are prone to flexing when they get older. Also depending on how many times the caliper has been unbolted and how the caliper is supported added stress can be put on the metal fittings on the lines which can cause a failure. IT is important to never let the calipers dangle and to never let the lines get taught and stretched. As I am sure you realize having a brake failure while on track can be deadly and unfortunately there have been a few fatalities over the years from S2000 brake line failures. Its rare but it has happened.
I realize this is an expensive list but just slowly start piecing this all together. Also if you did all of this at once you are introducing a lot of new variables to the car and can make learning more difficult as the car has changed. A benefit of doing this step by step and slowly is you can feel each change and not have to re-learn the car every track day or autocross. The flip side of that though is if you do it slowly it may take a year or two to fully upgrade the car depending on how frequently you track/autocross it. If you only plan on doing a handful of events each year then try to get more of the stuff sooner. Two day events will also help because you may very well use most of the first day learning a possibly new track and re-learning the car. The second day can then be spent on finding speed. Shop around for deals on parts and keep an eye out for tire rebates.
12-03-2012, 06:47 AM
#22
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That was a lot of fun on the course and THANK YOU Ryan for being my first instructor. You got me on a good start and I'd love to do this again, if I can. It was a lot of fun, and I'm still learning what my stock S can do. What a blast to push it on a safer-than-street course. I think it makes me think about being a safer driver when I'm surrounded by "non-event" drivers on the Interstate.
On a side note, would my stock S be better on an autocross (or track) course with 16" or 17 wheels, assuming I'm running similar Hankook V12 all around?
What about off-set (OEM size) vs all tires the same size?
Does anyone know how the OEM tires compare to Hankook V12 on track, autocross or general street and highway driving?
On a side note, would my stock S be better on an autocross (or track) course with 16" or 17 wheels, assuming I'm running similar Hankook V12 all around?
What about off-set (OEM size) vs all tires the same size?
Does anyone know how the OEM tires compare to Hankook V12 on track, autocross or general street and highway driving?
The pleasure was mine. Instructing is fun and I hope to do more of it. My neck is a bit sore after 30 laps of go-karting Friday, 45 AutoX runs on Saturday and 8 runs on Sunday. I'm beat! I still managed to do well enough yesterday but it was too close for my comfort!
You're right, Autocross can teach you not only how to go fast, but how to be safer driver. Being able to handle the car better in quick situations is only half of it, looking ahead, seeing/analyzing the big picture so that you can react properly is the other half.
Tires - I've always thought that Ap1s on OEM rims/stagger should go with 245/16s rear and not 225s if they don't pick a tire that is as sticky as stock or better. 140-200 treadware tires. The OEM 225s that Honda spec'd measure close to a 245 compared to some other brands that run small.
The V12s that you are running are not as good as stock.
17s are wider so I'd go OEM 17s if you can. 215/45/17 and 245/40/17 for best feel or up size one for a little better grip but only if you go with a tire that has a stiff sidewall so it's not as floppy.
I thought your tires were lacking grip. The front not only pushed before I thought it would, but the rear came out a little easier than I thought it should. For what it's worth, I drove your car after the all stock Subaru BRZ on OEM tires, at about 70% of my capability in both cars and only put down the same time. On better tires, it would have been a faster time. 34.2 seconds in each car. I put a faster time down in a miata that clearly had more grip than your car with similar tires in similar size 215s front and rear, so basically car weight came into play there.
Check the Stickies in the Wheel and tire section for more information.
12-03-2012, 07:06 AM
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12-03-2012, 07:32 AM
#24
Another consideration is classing and to stay in BS you can only use 16" rims that are within 1/4" of the OEM rims. MY 2000-2003 S2000's stock wheel sizes were 16" so you can' use the AP2 wheels and stay in BS. I agree the best fit for the AP1s is the 225/245 front rear combination, but to take full advantage of that combination a big front sway bar is needed. With the big front sway bar (Saner, Gendron, CompTech) and a set of Koni Sport yellows you can be very competitive in the stock class with a set of A6 Hoosiers or the equivalent Kumho auto cross tires. Oh and of course I happen to have the JDM OEM 16" wheels, Comptech sway bar, and a very good set of Hoosier A5's for sale in a separate thread. 
12-03-2012, 08:09 AM
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good info Gloffer.
I don't believe he wants to be competitive with AutoX which is why I didn't mention the classing thing. But best he knows now. And to clarify on the 0.25" rule, that's with offset of rims of same size. So a OEM Ap2 17x8.5 +65 rim could essentially be spaced out 6mm or you could buy a rim that was 17x8.5 +59. you can apply the same 6mm offset to Ap1 rims.
I don't believe he wants to be competitive with AutoX which is why I didn't mention the classing thing. But best he knows now. And to clarify on the 0.25" rule, that's with offset of rims of same size. So a OEM Ap2 17x8.5 +65 rim could essentially be spaced out 6mm or you could buy a rim that was 17x8.5 +59. you can apply the same 6mm offset to Ap1 rims.
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